The coin trade – on collecting, trading, and guard dogs
In times of inflation, investors like to look for alternative investments. Real estate is too expensive, stocks are too risky, and cryptocurrencies are too complicated. But what about collectibles?
Rarities have long been considered an alternative investment - including valuable coins. While dealers and collectors recognize a special story or a valuable investment in them, others smell a fraudulent business. But what makes trading coins so attractive? What should I pay attention to, and what does eBay do to protect buyers and sellers from fraud? Managing Director of the German Coin Dealers Association, Stefan Lutter, and Chairman of the Board, Michael Becker, answer these and many other questions in conversation with Tobias Körner, Category Manager Collectibles at eBay Germany, and our podcaster Isabell.
By the way, if you would like to use the logo of the Berufsverband des Deutschen Münzfachhandels e. V., feel free to contact the association by email: info@muenzenverband.de.
**Important Links**
Michael Becker: Many people who no longer get interest at the bank are now investing their money in coins and hoping to counter inflation that way.
Isabell: Hello dear listeners, and welcome to a new episode of our eBay podcast for our sellers and, of course, for everyone who wants to become one. In times of inflation, when bank interest rates are low, many investors are looking for new opportunities. Real estate has often become too expensive, stocks are getting riskier and riskier, and cryptocurrencies are pretty complicated. But what about collectibles? Rarities of all kinds have long been used as investments. Whether art and antiques, cars, classic cars, coins or other things - everything is in demand. And today we're talking about one of these collecting fields, namely coins. Anyone searching for coins on eBay is confronted with over two million search results. Prices here are often in the five-figure range. And it quickly becomes clear: at prices like these, they are not only of interest to investors, but also to fraudsters. Some see them as a valuable investment, others recognize a fraudulent business in them. But what makes trading in coins so attractive? What do I need to keep in mind when buying and selling coins? And what exactly does eBay do to protect buyers and sellers? To answer these and other exciting questions, I once again invited my colleague Tobias. He also belongs in this category. And attentive listeners may still remember him from the episode with eBay seller Helge Veith from fanartikelweltcom, in which we talked about trading cards. Hello Tobias!
Tobias: Hello Isabell, thank you for the invitation. Since I myself worked in this field for ten years before my time at eBay, I was of course very happy to be on the podcast again and to bring along two exciting guests. Those are Mr. Stefan Lutter and Mr. Michael Becker from the Berufsverband des Deutschen Münzenfachhandels.
Isabell: I'm glad to welcome a real panel of experts to our podcast today. So once again from me: welcome, Mr. Lutter, and welcome, Mr. Becker!
Stefan Lutter: Hello and many thanks for the invitation to today's podcast.
Michael Becker: I also thank you for the invitation and am pleased to be here.
Isabell: Mr. Lutter, please tell our listeners who you are exactly.
Stefan Lutter: Yes, my name is Stefan Lutter and I am the managing director of the Berufsverband des Deutschen Münzenfachhandelt. The association is based in Cologne. But I have not spent my entire life in Cologne; I am a late entrant into the industry. I started out as a bank clerk and then entered the industry through an accessories publisher that produces collecting accessories, albums, cases, etc. Yes, and three years ago it was time for the managing director succession at the association, and the board of the association discussed it and pointed fingers at me. And so three years ago I moved to Cologne and have been the association's managing director ever since.
Isabell: Very nice. And Mr. Becker, you are chairman of the association. Please introduce yourself and tell our listeners what exactly falls within the chairman's area of responsibility.
Michael Becker: Yes, hello, my name is Michael Becker. I have been the volunteer chairman of the association since 2009. Before that, I was deputy chairman from 1992. As I said, this is voluntary. My main job is coin dealing. I have been working in coin trading since 1984 and claim to know the subject quite well.
Isabell: Knowing the subject quite well - what exactly is the Berufsverband des deutschen Münzenfachhandels anyway? Personally, I haven't heard of it, but I'm not particularly active in that area either.
Stefan Lutter: Yes, it is the professional association of coin dealers, but not only coin dealers, also other companies that are mainly involved with numismatics. So that includes wholesalers, mail-order dealers, specialist publishers that publish catalogs or numismatic trade journals, accessories manufacturers, and of course those who produce storage products, auctioneers, and, increasingly, online retailers who are also active on platforms like eBay. And recently we have also increasingly included precious metal dealers in our association alongside coin dealers, so it is a broad range of companies around numismatics.
Isabell: And what exactly is your area of responsibility then?
Stefan Lutter: Yes, in the office, my colleagues and employees and I are the first point of contact for our members when there are questions. We are also the ones who maintain contacts in representing the interests of our members. So with politics, with the economy, yes, with the mints or when it comes to the issuance of coins, we have contact with the Federal Office of Administration, for example. Yes, so it is a diverse field of activity for us in the office. Above all are our members; we are the point of contact for them.
Isabell: I just caught a word, numismatics. What exactly does that mean?
Michael Becker: Numismatics is the technical term for coin collecting, for coin studies. It sounds very, very foreign, but it is harmless. And coin collecting is a very, very nice hobby. Of course that's easy for me to say, but even people who haven't had much to do with coins find it fascinating, and it is educational too. And the money you hold in your hand when you deal with it, collect it, set it aside or value it is already an early form of numismatics. We all still have coins in our wallets and sometimes look at them and are delighted when we find exotic coins in there. In that respect, there is at least a little bit of interest in coins in most people.
Isabell: In what way does coin collecting educate?
Michael Becker: With many coins, you get to know countries you have not yet traveled to yourself, and regions you only know by hearsay or have never even heard of. And coins are produced in every country in the world. And if you look at some collection of coins, you already see a lot of different countries. And even now in our wallets we have coins from the entire euro area. Since a week ago now, Croatia too, for example.
Isabell: And what do I need to do to be part of the association, or what criteria do I have to meet to become a member?
Stefan Lutter: Yes, to do that you have to work full-time, around numismatics, I would say. So you don't necessarily have to be a classic coin dealer. I already mentioned that catalog publishers, trade journals, publications or the accessories manufacturers are also with us. But you do need to have a connection to numismatics. You also need to have been doing it for some time, because it is important to us that we can get an idea of a new member in advance, that they fit in and how they have behaved in the market so far. So we usually say that the person should have been active on the market for two years already. Exceptions prove the rule, so if someone has a comparable career path in the past, then that can work, but they should already meet these requirements and they must also submit three references with their application, meaning confirmations from member companies that support the applicant's admission to the association, and that can say from their experience: Yes, he fits in with us, we are happy to have him in our association.
Isabell: And if I have submitted the application together with the references, then the application is checked by you again, so to speak, and then you get in touch with the potential member?
Stefan Lutter: Exactly. The application is published by us. We have a newsletter that is sent to all members at irregular intervals, roughly once a month. The applicants are introduced there, and then there is a period of three months in which members can send us positive as well as negative comments, if there are any, about this application to the office. And after these three months, the board decides on admission and, as a rule, the applicants have already made it and become members with us.
Isabell: Very nice. For members, professional interests are then represented and the association also does public relations work around coin collecting. What other benefits does such membership bring?
Michael Becker: You are in a trade association, you have exchange among colleagues. You are allowed to carry our seal of approval, provided you have met the admission criteria. And to add to that, we as the board can't know every applicant. We currently have 220 member companies from all over Germany. When someone submits an application, we depend on the help of our members, who tell us: yes, we know them, they are fine, I have already done business with them. Or also the hints like: oh, they are not reputable enough to become a member with us. And that is why it is published. We don't decide that entirely on our own either. We receive the application, check it, publish it, and then the members can say, no, for these and those reasons we are against it, we don't want them. Then it undergoes further review. And it has also happened that applicants were rejected because they did not meet our standards. Because we have, in a sense, built up a seal for coin trading, which we are A) proud of and B) must protect. And if we take in dealers who do not behave correctly, commercially, in business, etc., toward colleagues, then we damage our, our entire association. And that is why we check this. And one, that is one of the biggest advantages, is that you are allowed to carry this seal and are also highlighted to collectors and interested parties as a certified coin dealer and can present yourself as such. Otherwise, we have many other advantages that membership brings. We have various framework agreements, about which Steffan Lutter can say more. We have better conditions for parcel shipping. In some cases we have better conditions for trade fair participation and so on and so forth. So we always look for ways to offer our members added value that then, in a way, also puts part of the membership fee back into their coffers, so to speak.
Isabell: So it's a very comprehensive added value that is offered by this. Let's take a deeper dive into the subject once more. The topic of coin collecting is probably more often associated with the older generation. For example, when I think of my parents or grandparents. Is this topic still more popular with older generations, or are there now many younger collectors too?
Michael Becker: There are many, very many younger collectors too. It is perhaps more that a coin collector who also spends more money, who perhaps is already a bit older in order to have the money available at all. They have established themselves professionally, maybe paid off their house or condominium. However that may be, the children may have moved out, and then you have more time for such a hobby. Coin collecting is a hobby, but many now also see it as an investment. And that is why there are increasingly younger collectors who invest in silver coins and gold coins and pursue this hobby as well. It is often perceived as a niche thing, but in my opinion it really is not. Many years ago there was a poster campaign in which the whole of Germany was plastered with posters showing the then-DM coins. 50 pfennig and rare pieces that you would normally not find in your wallet. And they were labeled with values back then. And that got broad sections of the population to deal with the money in their wallets too.
Isabell: And has the topic changed through e-commerce in recent years?
Michael Becker: Through e-commerce, certainly many more younger people have come to the hobby, because the classic traditional sales channels such as coin fairs or catalog mail-order etc. may be declining somewhat. And through e-commerceization, it has certainly come much closer to younger audiences.
Isabell: Tobias, then let's stay with the topic of e-commerce and online retail, so also with our marketplace. How did the collaboration with the association and with Mr. Lutter and Mr. Becker as contacts for this episode even come about? You already said earlier that you've basically been active in the field for a long time.
Tobias: Exactly, we are very pleased that for several years now we have been working closely with a national association. The collaboration has intensified in recent years, also because we already knew each other very well from our earlier time in coin trading. And we have worked on many exciting projects. Some visitors to the site may also have noticed that in search results when searching for coins, the association logo is displayed for some dealers. And that is, so to speak, a project that we, the authorized dealer program, have launched together with the association, so that members of the association who commit to the quality standards and the high standard of the coin association are also particularly recognizable on our site and thus are then also noticeable as providing an additional sense of security when buying coins and precious metals on our platform. And generally the collaboration with the coin trade is great because we also get a lot of feedback from their side of the trade about what could be improved, what is sometimes going wrong with certain dealers. So really feedback from all directions that we receive. And of course that makes us very happy because we have it first-hand and when we make changes, we can also communicate wonderfully through the coin association on the other side, reaching a broad number of dealers. And especially what we are working on this year is the so-called "Watchdog" program. We picked that up because it already exists in the stamp association, in the APHV. A watchdog is, in a sense, a group of dealers who voluntarily look for counterfeit and misleading listings on our eBay site and report them so that buyers on the site do not run the risk of falling into fakes.
Isabell: And do these watchdogs often discover counterfeits and misleading listings?
Tobias: Recently there has been a phenomenon that has spread on the site especially around the €2 error coin, or euro circulation coins in general as error coins. It even made it into the media. There were a few reports about it, and in this case €2 coins, let's say as an example, were listed at absurd prices of €200, €500 or over €1,000. I think the most expensive one was even up to €10 million that was offered on the site. But these are actually just normal €2 circulation coins that the sellers found in their wallets there. But the numismatic value, the collector value of these coins, does not correspond to that at all. These are really coins that may have a nick because they were dropped somewhere or run over by a train. And then that is presented as an error coin. But actually it is misleading, and we also strive to make sure that these offers are reported and, on the other hand, to inform users in cooperation with the coin association that real error coins can indeed be found in circulation. There are certainly some that have value. But the values are usually in the range of €50 to a maximum of €100, maybe €200, if they are real minting errors that occurred during the minting process. But, let's say, 90%, 99% of the mintings currently found or shown unfortunately are not worth those amounts.
Isabell: Okay, and Mr. Becker, what should I, as a seller of coins, pay attention to when selling?
Michael Becker: Well, it would be nice if sellers did not offer such coins, as Mr. Körner just described, because it just drives everyone crazy. Me and my colleagues too. Our colleagues call people every day and say yes, I heard something, I read something. I have a €2 coin here that is supposedly worth a five-figure amount. And then you have to gently explain to people that all of that is nonsense. It would be nice if these offers could somehow be restricted. But I don't think that can be done through seller discipline; that's where these watchdogs have to step in. Otherwise, I would recommend that a seller provide as accurate a description as possible, as truthful a description as possible, good, proper photos, and also point out any defects on the coin, because that pays off in the long run when customers are satisfied and don't later say at home, man, what rubbish did I buy there. It's so much, much worse preserved than it was in the pictures. And honestly, honestly describing the product and offering honest goods is better than any nebulous photos. Very, very badly photographed with the note "attic find, I found something here, I don't know what it is" and then it is supposed to be bid up by people who feel a bit like fortune hunters and think they can now make a huge bargain. Then people's greed is being exploited. If you. If you put up such offers and in my opinion that is not reputable.
Isabell: And if I want to buy a coin now, what should I pay attention to when buying a coin? And above all, if I am not yet as familiar with it as you are. We just talked about damaged coins that are usually not worth five figures.
Michael Becker: Yes, the same applies here. You have to look at who the provider is. Is the provider reputable, is he either a member of the association, as I now have to say out of self-interest, or at least does he have many ratings and positive ratings above all? So with someone who lists something that seems very expensive at a very low price and has only three eBay ratings, caution would certainly be advised. Then it is better to turn to reputable power sellers and organized specialist dealers and not bid on coins from some nebulous photos, but from proper photos, properly described, and and keep your hands off any supposed error coins where the coin only has a flaw. Some things are also manually, that is, machine-damaged, deliberately damaged to suggest an error coin. Sometimes it is also simply a mix-up, because the seller does not know that the coin from Andorra has a different design than the one from Italy. And then stars are somehow considered too big or too small, and you should keep your hands off that. That is generally all smoke and mirrors and has nothing to do with coin collecting, especially since these supposed minting errors are usually also in terrible condition, so they are not collectible at all.
Isabell: Tobias, you've collected a lot of feedback over the past year through close collaboration with the coin association, as you mentioned earlier. So a very close exchange has developed. The selling fees on our platform were a frequent point of criticism, you mentioned in your preparation for today. Were you able to do anything about that?
Tobias: Yes, in close exchange with the coin association we diligently collected and evaluated the feedback, and criticism of the selling commission came up relatively often. We looked into that more closely and then launched a campaign last year in collaboration with the coin association, in which we conducted a test for a small group of dealers, reducing the selling fee. And during this promotion we found that it had a positive effect on the dealers' behavior, that more products were listed, that prices were also adjusted, and that competitive products were being offered on our marketplace accordingly. As a result, we decided that as of March 1, 2023, we will reduce the selling fees in the coins category in general for all dealers and all sellers on the site from 11% to 6.5%.
Isabell: That's definitely great news for our sellers and dealers. Congratulations to you and your team for working so hard on that. We've now talked in great detail about why it's so important in this industry to work with reputable dealers. How can I find out, for example, if I find a coin collection in my grandmother's basement, how much it is worth?
Michael Becker: You can contact our members with confidence. We have a member list on our homepage, and you can also use sorting functions there. You can sort by location and contact the dealers near you accordingly. By email, by phone, whatever works. Otherwise, if you live in the Berlin area, I can recommend the following. From February 3 to 5, the world's largest coin fair takes place at the Estrel Hotel. There are many, many dealers there to whom you can show your treasures. The association is also represented there with its own information stand. We have set up a special expert corner there, where one of our colleagues sits with catalogs, a microscope, magnifying glasses and everything you need, and is happy to look at your treasures and explain with a lot of patience and expert knowledge what valuable coins you have there, or not valuable coins.
Isabell: And on March 4 and 5, Numismata will already take place in Munich. So if someone decides to start collecting now, those are probably two very good places to get in touch with you. So you will also be there in person at both fairs, have I understood that correctly?
Michael Becker: That's right. We are represented at both fairs with a stand where we take care of our members and the visitors, and with activities that are not yet set in stone we also contribute a bit to the fun. In Berlin, for example, we will give away coin catalogs provided to us by a manufacturer. Every visitor can pick up a catalog at the association stand, free of charge and without obligation.
Isabell: Have you been represented at the World Money Fair often? And what exactly should I imagine this fair to be like?
Michael Becker: The World Money Fair has existed since 2006, and since then the association has also been centrally involved there. We were involved in the organization from the very beginning, and since 2006 the fair has grown into the world's largest coin fair in terms of visitor numbers and exhibitor numbers. I hope I haven't misjudged anything in America; there are coin fairs there too. But I'm not there myself. We're talking about the German and European market, and in that market the World Money Fair is certainly number one.
Isabell: How many people come there roughly?
Michael Becker: Before the pandemic, there were sometimes 15,000 to 20,000 visitors over the three days.
Isabell: Wow, and Tobias, have you been there too?
Tobias: The upcoming World Money Fair in February will be my tenth, and I've been going since 2011, which was the very first one I attended, with the two-year interruption caused by the pandemic. And it's simply like a huge family reunion by now when you've been involved for so many years. You see the dealers, the manufacturers from all over the world. You meet once a year, and by now you also make friends beyond the meetings. It's really, really a very nice gathering when you're there again.
Isabell: And do you see many young people there too?
Tobias: It's a very mixed crowd, so both among the visitors and among the companies that take part there, it's really very, very mixed across the board.
Isabell: eBay Germany was also represented at the European Trading Cardshow in Munich. Will eBay Germany now also be involved in the fair?
Tobias: Yes, we will be there again with a trade fair booth. In addition, we will be there with the German eBay Collectibles team and will also have colleagues from the USA and from the UK there. And we will once again have exciting giveaways with us. We will also have colleagues from the customer service teams there so that we can answer questions well around topics that concern sellers. So we are well positioned and we are happy about every visitor at our booth.
Isabell: So another great opportunity to talk directly again. We've talked a lot about trade fairs. To finish, I'd like to know what the most unusual coin was that you've ever dealt with.
Michael Becker: Yes, I once had. Now unfortunately we're back to the topic, now we're talking about an error coin. But this time it's about a real error coin. Since 2002, the Federal Republic has issued 10-euro commemorative coins in silver, and from 2003 onward, motifs commemorating the 2006 FIFA World Cup were minted. And this coin has an edge inscription, "The world as guest among friends." And while sorting in the warehouse, we suddenly discovered that we had a coin whose edge did not say "The world as guest among friends," but "Ruhrpott, Ruhrpott, Ruhrpott." That caused general astonishment. We then looked it up in the catalog and saw that this was a genuine error coin, because it was a blank prepared for the 10-euro Ruhr area coin. You have to know that first the edge inscription is minted and then the motif. And there was a mix-up at the mint. They then minted the football motif onto this reeded coin, and thus you have a real error coin because the edge inscription does not match the image on the coin. And something like that is worth 2,000-3,000 €.
Isabell: And is that a lot or a little for a coin?
Michael Becker: That's not necessarily a lot for a coin. For a 10-euro piece, it's relatively a lot for a curiosity. Otherwise, there are coins nowadays worth into the seven-figure range. But you shouldn't look only at the value. Coin collecting itself is fun, and there are also many beautiful coins that you can buy for little money. And you shouldn't just covet high values. Of course it's nice if you have something or inherit something and it's worth a lot. But in recent years, due to all the economic problems, inflation, etc., coins have also increasingly established themselves as an investment. Silver coins, gold coins, rare coins. Many people who no longer get interest at the bank are now investing their money in coins and hoping to counter inflation that way.
Isabell: Tobias, what was the most valuable coin ever sold on eBay?
Tobias: With valuable coins sold on eBay, it is also the case that, because we also sell a lot of precious metals, many gold bars have been among the high-value items when you look at the values. What stood out to me particularly in the past year, to see more current results, was that we sold a curious coin. It was a five-ounce gold coin from the French mint Monnaie de Paris. It was issued for the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and the coin was made of pure gold, really five ounces, that's 155 grams of fine gold. It was minted in the form of a piece of the Berlin Wall, and it has a really very curious design; I really recommend looking it up online, because it is truly something unique, already a piece of modern coin minting art. It sold on the site for just under €15,000.
Isabell: Does it happen often that coins are sold in something other than a classic coin format?
Tobias: Interestingly, over the last few years this has developed very strongly in that direction as well, to appeal to younger collectors. There are many mintings that refer to modern films. For example, there are now "Back to the Future" or "E.T." coins, and we have "Mickey Mouse" coins. In the past, the term Mickey Mouse coin was always used as a light joke about coins. Now they actually exist, and a huge new collecting area has emerged, which also appeals to younger collectors who can then re-enter the coin collecting topic through their connection to films or series. Fitting with Mr. Becker's remark about coin curiosities and the idea that coin collecting teaches history, another example comes to mind that I personally experienced at a fair in the USA. There, at a major US Mint fair, a coin was on display. The US Mint is the mint of the United States, and this was a coin dated 1933. And in that year, the gold ban was introduced in the USA, and these coins were minted with the minting die or with the 1933 date. In theory, all of them were supposed to be melted down, but a few coins that had already been minted actually made it through. They ended up in circulation, and I believe only three are now known that may officially be in private hands. One of them is in the National Museum in the USA, and one caused a stir just last year, I believe in the summer, and this coin was auctioned for a value of just under $20 million. And that is the story behind this coin. It had circulated from the US Mint back then, was in the hands of the King of Egypt, King Farouk, for a time, and then went to a very wealthy US private collector who auctioned it at the auction house in the summer and achieved a record result. And that is simply an exciting story, where you really have the topic of coin collecting, of course at a very high level, but also the story of how this coin ended up in the hands of the Egyptian king and then, in the end, was auctioned on from one collection to another.
Isabell: In the episode where we talked about trading cards, we discussed that the cards should ideally be stored in a sleeve. Is there an equivalent for coins?
Tobias: Yes, there is. And those are, in a sense, coin capsules. Many of the modern minted coins, which also have very reflective surfaces and are very sensitive, are encapsulated directly by the manufacturers. And I can really advise every collector not to remove them from these capsules, because otherwise fingerprints will leave unsightly marks on these coins.
Isabell: More and more payments are now cashless, and that is likely to be the future. I can even pay with my smartphone now. What is your view on that?
Michael Becker: We are rather skeptical about that, because if someday there are no coins in circulation anymore, then younger generations may also see no reason to collect coins. But in the end, the coins we have in our wallets are only the first step. People also collect coins that are 2,000 or 3,000 years old, from antiquity, that are historically interesting. Money has always existed, and if one day it no longer exists in our everyday environment because we pay with our phones at the supermarket, there will hopefully still be coin collectors. Because the old coins exist, and the old coins also have great value when it comes to current mintings. Then there will perhaps be, then there will be these coins that Mr. Körner just spoke about, in interesting shapes, interesting themes, comic and so on. Even the Federal Republic of Germany now has colored coins. When we suggested that to them ten or fifteen years ago, they practically threw us out of the office during the meeting, I would say. Something like that would be unworthy of Germany. Nowadays, there are also colored coins and coins made from various interesting materials in Germany. In that respect, we are confident that there will always be collectible coins and always collectors too.
Isabell: Super exciting. I can see there's a lot to learn again in a completely new area for me. Thank you all for being here today. It was super interesting. And thanks again, dear Tobias, for being here today too and supporting us with your background knowledge.
Stefan Lutter: Thank you very much for having us here today.
Michael Becker: Thank you very much.
Isabell: Goodbye and see you next time.
By
4 comments
mum_cha2010
·1 year agoGood evening,
My question is:
why is an auction deleted even though, due to other auctions on eBay: "5 EURO Schein 2002, france" - it served as an idea to offer a note like that as well, since you can no longer find it in everyday payment transactions (so, collectible!)
I know that banknotes that are still valid are not allowed to be offered on eBay.
But why the difference?
Thanks for some info.
arnohar
·3 years agoNot informative and boring.
Anonymous User
·3 years agoOld news - just boring!
Young people who collect coins? Probably even with a proportion of women? You may dream of that, but it has nothing to do with reality.
re-ka-be
·3 years ago10 minutes of just the criteria for how to become a coin dealer and a member of an umbrella organization. I'd had enough of that - I thought I was going to hear something about coin collecting and eBay. In an essay, this would get the grade MISSED THE TOPIC