E-Commerce in China and Germany – What can we learn from each other?
Many Chinese people use the social media ecosystem, meaning chat platforms like WeChat, which link messaging with a complex cross-shopping experience. WeChat profiles are connected to other apps, for example online marketplaces. But gaming apps, live streaming, and live shopping, including auctions, are also part of the complex entertainment mix.
The podcast also explores how Chinese companies want to make social media and shopping platforms accessible for all generations and how e-commerce companies from Germany and China can learn from one another.
**Important links**
To the podcast overview
DICONIUM: https://diconium.com/de
Isabell: Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to a new episode of our eBay podcast. We're glad you're joining us again today. My colleague Tino and I have brought along a topic today that goes beyond our eBay universe, and that's why it's especially exciting for everyone interested in e-commerce.
Tino: Yes, hello from me too, and you're absolutely right, Isabell, today we're moving beyond the eBay landscape and, in a sense, onto an e-commerce meta level, if you will. Today we have Professor Dr. Steffen P Walz as our guest. Professor of Design Innovation and Game Design at Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne and Explorer at DICONIUM, a provider of digital transformation services. Steffen is an expert on e-commerce developments in China. That alone already sounds extremely exciting, and we'd like to learn more about it. But today's topic is even better. We want to take a closer look at what German e-commerce and our sellers can learn from Chinese principles, especially when it comes to entertainment.
Isabell: Yes wow, Tino, who wouldn't be hooked by that announcement? I think that was the longest introduction we've had so far. Yes, Steffen, first of all, a very warm welcome from us. We're very happy to have you as our guest today.
Steffen: Yes, Isabell, Tino, thank you very much for the invitation. I'm really happy to be here and hope something sticks.
Tino: I'm really super excited to see where you'll take us today. We've already talked a bit about what you do, but I think you definitely need to flesh that out a bit more. What does an Explorer at DICONIUM do, and how exactly did you build up your China expertise?
Steffen: Well, Explorer in German means “scout,” and that's what I am too. I look at new digital topics. I look at the edges of e-commerce, not just there, I also deal with questions around the health of entertainment, so somehow that's the holy trinity, maybe, because these things come very close together, and that's exactly what happens in China. So my job is part of the innovation team, not just for Volkswagen, since we're a Volkswagen subsidiary, but also for our other clients. There are many from the e-commerce sector. And because DICONIUM has been around for over 25 years now, they were pioneers, or one of the pioneers, in Germany, and that's one side of it. The other side has to do with my university career. For many years I was a full professor in Australia and taught game design and design innovation there, and through my university career I got to know many Chinese students who come to Australia to study. There is a large population. At the same time, through my research I was often in China. There I got to know entertainment in vehicles, fitness, all kinds of things, and for almost 20 years now I've had very close contacts, I go there very regularly and keep an eye on it, because in China, when it comes to digital, unfortunately they are not just miles ahead of us, but many, many light-years ahead, maybe even further, and the worst thing is, actually very cool, the bad thing is that we don't even really have it on our radar sometimes.
Isabell: That sounds super exciting. If you had to describe the digital or the digital retail experience in China, what would it look like?
Steffen: There isn't really such a thing as a single experience in that sense. Let me start at the beginning: what does a seller do if they want to sell something there? They go to WeChat. It's basically a messenger, like WhatsApp for us, let's say, and then you create a profile, not a website.
Isabell: Okay, so kind of like opening an eBay shop now?
Steffen: Yes, exactly, but the original reason is actually communication, that's the starting point. They do use email too, but communication, mixed between business and private, mainly happens on WeChat. So to give you a number: there are 950 million users, and they're chatting away all the time, and the shop is then generated through an app that lives inside the WeChat app. It's a bit like eBay actually being an app—you are one too—but underneath there would be countless other apps, and everyone can then do something interactive inside it. It's not just a matter of, I'll exaggerate a bit now, putting up a poster and saying I sell pants or, I don't know, robot vacuums, and that's the big difference. And the other big difference is the way payment works. Compared to PayPal, the major payment providers don't transfer the money immediately, but only once the goods have actually been delivered and are exactly as described. AliPay is the real big competitor, so Alibaba and WeChat are the main apps, so to speak. I need to explain it a bit like a website under which all kinds of other smaller mini-websites live, maybe that's a way to translate it, but it mainly happens on mobile, almost exclusively. And the two of them, Alibaba and WeChat—WeChat belongs to Tencent—are the main players, so it's basically a duopoly, to put it in e-commerce terms, and within that duopoly there are countless others underneath offering an incredible amount too, which is why you also have to say that this individual experience, as we imagine it, in China, and that maybe brings us directly to the main topic, is always embedded in a kind of holistic experience. So you have to imagine, if I go shopping, say I order a taxi with Didi. That's one provider, right, like a taxi company or Uber, as we used to say. If I've ordered a car from Didi to pick me up, I can order flowers or food right away, to wherever I'm going or driving to. But I can also play a little game right away—they automatically offer that to sweeten the waiting time—and then I even win something or get something discounted, so the e-commerce experience, the transaction, is embedded in a larger context. We call that the Swiss army knife principle. It's not just a knife; you also have lots of other things, and that's why the idea of a single retailer basically doesn't exist in Chinese thinking, but rather they always think in ecosystems. And how can they plug into the ecosystems that already exist, and how can they generate as much reach as possible, and several transactions beyond the actual transaction? That's the big difference.
Tino: That sounds like a completely different shopping experience from what we know here in Germany, for example. Is there something like a similar marketplace in China, like eBay? You already mentioned that earlier.
Steffen: No.
Tino: I almost feared you'd answer that short and sweet. So maybe you can go into a bit more detail about what it looks like there.
Steffen: I can illustrate it. So, besides the two big players just mentioned, WeChat and Alibaba, there are department stores attached to them, the biggest being Taobao, which in turn belongs to Alibaba. Of course they're all interconnected; that's ecosystem thinking too. Not only the small sellers are plugged in, but the big ones also try to connect themselves widely into all possible aspects of life. Then there's JD, actually Jing Dong, which is 20% owned by Tencent. There you get, let's say, very good goods. High-quality goods, also available in the West under JD, i.e. JD.com. And then there's Pinduoduo, which is more, as they always say, for the rural population, right, so it's bargain hunting, how do you say it, deal hunting? Those are the big shopping channels, I'd like to call them that, channels in the sense of apps in this app ecosystem. And that's why there isn't this pure auction character, “the eBay” doesn't exist. What does exist, for comparison: auctions are very attractive, among other things, in a market that's exploding there right now, and that's live streaming, live shopping. There you find that auction idea very strongly again, and of course also the direct-purchase idea, and to illustrate the live streaming: in 2020, CNN said it grew by 257%. What does that mean? People don't want to buy the product itself; people, the Chinese population, see shopping as an entertainment experience, as an entertainment offering, and that's also the fundamental difference when you look at websites in Germany. Maybe also with you? Then you'll see that these websites haven't fundamentally changed in the last 10, 15 years. They're still the same, of course: menu bar here, maybe another offer there. Through entertainment offerings, as just described, the Chinese wait for a car, for a taxi they've called, then they can play a game, but then they can also be linked to another seller right away. Or you sit down and watch something and can also take part in a quiz while doing it, right, so it's video plus interactive participation, engagement—that's the big difference, and that's the mindset too, and there's constant innovation happening there, also because in China it's simply true: new things are constantly being tried out. People don't assume that if a system works well, you just let it keep running; that's more how we tick here. Don't Touch a Running System. Don't touch the well-functioning, running thing. Over there, they say if we don't do anything new, if we don't step it up, the competition will eat us alive. And that's true. And because it's a very large market, with 1.2 billion people, I don't know, and hundreds of millions of active users and so many transactions and so much money being generated there, it's simply also possible to keep trying new things—we should really be clear about that, right? They are much braver than we are, especially when it comes to digital stuff.
Tino: You put it very nicely earlier too. Instead of a shopping experience, they have an entertainment experience, and because of that I think there's also stronger customer loyalty. So I think the time spent shopping is simply longer because I can jump from one thing to the next—that's great.
Steffen: That's also been proven.
Isabell: Interesting, so you basically share the customer, right?
Steffen: Exactly, yes, that's precisely the perspective the Chinese have. They say, because of the ecosystem mindset, this isn't just my customer; it's a customer who reaches across. And if we manage that, partnerships are also formed, and as I said, you also have to look at the really big ones, right, they naturally have so much power, market power, that they also build their own companies to sell insurance, health services, basically trying to cover the whole spectrum of life areas. But the view is that the customer should be very digital, experience as much entertainment as possible, and also cool things, not just junk. And people enjoy that, to illustrate. In China, TV isn't watched much; instead, what used to be called TV shopping here is watched as shopping as entertainment, the way we consume a TV series. There are figures, evidence, showing that people really spend a substantial amount of time watching videos too. TikTok is on everyone's lips here, and if you look at the young target group, I know the demographics of mobile use very well right now, TikTok is exploding in Germany too—these are short little videos, and of course things are sold there too. Now you could say: well, that's not happening here. I don't think so. I believe the very young target group is taking it up massively, as described: TikTok and brands that are also coming from China to Germany. From our market research I know that, conversely, Western brands are increasingly no longer even recognized in China.
Isabell: Hmm, we've talked a lot now about what we can learn from China. But maybe we can turn it around a bit too. Maybe you can share a few experiences where the Chinese might say, wow, that's really working well in Germany—maybe not necessarily in terms of entertainment, but perhaps there's something else cultural that they really value here?
Steffen: So at DICONIUM, two years ago we asked exactly that question and flew two Chinese influencers to Germany and invited them to try out all kinds of digital services in Germany. Booking a train ticket, buying cosmetic products in a shop, and many things—surprisingly, a lot of it really wasn't that good. A few things they also found really cool. That we still have good automobiles, for example, and we had prepared some interesting digital experiences too. But what they especially liked, and what stuck with me too, was the comment: “Wow, it's so nice and quiet and calm here in Germany.” Now one might think, oh, from a competitive standpoint that's maybe not so great, right, and from an innovation standpoint either. But actually they told us, you know, we're under stress all the time. We're constantly being bombarded, yes, the sword can of course be turned around too, and we absolutely enjoy that we don't have internet here for once. We were somewhere deep in the forest in Upper Franconia, and we wanted to check how far the internet still reached there. And they loved that. And I think China still has a great deal of respect for the quality that comes from Germany, for design performance, and for the systems thinking that drives us here so often. At the same time, they also see us a bit, I'll put it very bluntly, as a kind of recreation park, and that maybe isn't such a bad thing either.
Tino: You've been to Asia, to China, a few times now. Which technology impressed you the most there?
Steffen: Let me tell you an anecdote. I was in Shenzhen, which is a city where the Chinese have set up a kind of special zone to push high technology forward. Very many things we use every day today, the smartphone, many components are manufactured there. We were invited there by the local, very large bus company to travel autonomously through the city's main rush-hour traffic, self-driving. And now I have to say one thing, and I don't want to trade in clichés here, but it was really like this: in China, in road traffic, someone can suddenly come directly toward you in your lane on a bicycle, full speed, with 30 boxes piled up on the back. And that's exactly what happened, and now imagine you're riding on a fully autonomous bus—there was still a driver there ready to intervene because it was a pilot project—then someone comes at us full speed on a bicycle, and the bus simply swerved out of the way, and they tested that in traffic. And I have to say, that, and this was two years ago, really impressed me incredibly. And I work for an automotive manufacturer, so indirectly, but I also deal a lot with Volkswagen and group research. Sure, we have things like that driving around too, but in full force, that was on another level, and the fact that it reacted like that too really impressed me, and lots of other things as well. The openness of the Chinese when it comes to technology. The quality that has increased. There's an incredible amount happening in technology development, in openness to digital things, and we can learn a huge amount from that. The Chinese are really cool in that respect too; they do cool things, they try things out, and for them, maybe just to put it in one sentence, the word resilience is used so often, especially when talking about Covid: the Chinese totally have resilience down pat, it's built into them. Resilience means constantly adapting and constantly trying new things. I find that absolutely admirable.
Isabell: And if we look ahead to next year, do you have a future scenario you see, or maybe if we look ahead to 2030?
Steffen: Oh yes, let me put it this way. One big change, or one thing happening in China, is that the government is starting to intervene very strongly in these big tech brands, saying that they have to develop for population groups, for example older people who haven't been reached so far. Then you practically have to rework your whole service thing for both the general population and for people who may no longer be able to read well. And it's being said that we want wealth to be redistributed across society, in other words, a profoundly social movement. I believe that's something we'll see happening very massively in China. A lot of money will be invested in that, also by the big players, to make it possible. We see this social inclusion and diversity as an innovation opportunity. That will happen in China, and what it will do to us in 2030 is, I think, that we will also see many of the things we've just talked about in the West. We'll see much more gaming and entertainment in retail and e-commerce. And perhaps more variety in that area too. I think there will be a strong blending of physical experience and virtual experience. And that will be exciting.
Isabell: That sounds super exciting, yes, unfortunately we don't have any time left, but Steffen, many, many thanks for being here today and for taking us into the world of digital experience in China. I found it super exciting. I think we could talk for hours. Maybe also a note to our community here: if you're listening to us right now and would like to hear more on the topic, please let us know again in our community. You'll find the link for that, depending on where you're listening to us, in the description, and maybe we'll invite Steffen again.
Tino: Yes, definitely, so Steffen, I actually had to keep thinking of my Japan vacation while you were talking earlier. Tokyo and Akihabara, that electronics and gaming district, that was really a yes, an extraordinary experience, and it kind of reminded me of that.
Steffen: Yes, I'm also a Japan lover, funny enough, we hadn't talked about that before. Akihabara, there are department stores there that are simply dedicated to video games, for example, for over 10 floors, or to electronics only. It's unbelievable. You go from one floor to the next. But I have to say China tops that.
Tino: Then I definitely need to go there again too.
Steffen: Yes, you all must, we all need to. We all know far too little about China. It's a cultural nation that goes back thousands of years. For example, you couldn't name well-known Chinese writers or painters. The Chinese know that about Westerners, that's the difference. That's the big difference. We're a bit in blind flight, and that has to change, and that's what I also believe will have changed in 2030, since you asked, because if we don't do that, we won't be taken seriously by the Chinese anymore. And that must not happen, and that's why I would advocate for, and hope for, bringing openness too, to say: we are not the ones teaching the Chinese something; we should listen to what the Chinese can teach us, and in business you should always do that anyway.
Tino: A nice closing remark, but you're not off the hook yet, you still can't go. No, but the last question we ask our guests here would be: what was the last thing you bought on eBay?
Steffen: Yes, it was Halloween recently, and my children saw a photo online of a pumpkin with vampire teeth. You know those teeth, the ones you stick in, and then we said that would be cool if they glowed in the dark. Then we put that in the hallway and I ordered glow-in-the-dark vampire teeth, and then we carved pumpkins and stuck them in, and they thought it was really great and it was very nice, wonderful.
Isabell: Yes, very nice. Yes, with that, we'd like to say goodbye for this week as well, and we hope our listeners enjoyed today's podcast episode just as much as we did. And as always, please leave us your feedback in the eBay Community, and of course we'd also be happy if you subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice, and we'll hear from you again in two weeks.
Tino: Yes, Steffen, thank you very, very much for being here, it was a lot of fun, super informative, and with that we'll say goodbye to everyone.
Steffen: Yes, thank you very much, Isabell and Tino, I really enjoyed it and maybe until next time.
Tino: Yes, hello from me too, and you're absolutely right, Isabell, today we're moving beyond the eBay landscape and, in a sense, onto an e-commerce meta level, if you will. Today we have Professor Dr. Steffen P Walz as our guest. Professor of Design Innovation and Game Design at Swinburne University of Technology in Melbourne and Explorer at DICONIUM, a provider of digital transformation services. Steffen is an expert on e-commerce developments in China. That alone already sounds extremely exciting, and we'd like to learn more about it. But today's topic is even better. We want to take a closer look at what German e-commerce and our sellers can learn from Chinese principles, especially when it comes to entertainment.
Isabell: Yes wow, Tino, who wouldn't be hooked by that announcement? I think that was the longest introduction we've had so far. Yes, Steffen, first of all, a very warm welcome from us. We're very happy to have you as our guest today.
Steffen: Yes, Isabell, Tino, thank you very much for the invitation. I'm really happy to be here and hope something sticks.
Tino: I'm really super excited to see where you'll take us today. We've already talked a bit about what you do, but I think you definitely need to flesh that out a bit more. What does an Explorer at DICONIUM do, and how exactly did you build up your China expertise?
Steffen: Well, Explorer in German means “scout,” and that's what I am too. I look at new digital topics. I look at the edges of e-commerce, not just there, I also deal with questions around the health of entertainment, so somehow that's the holy trinity, maybe, because these things come very close together, and that's exactly what happens in China. So my job is part of the innovation team, not just for Volkswagen, since we're a Volkswagen subsidiary, but also for our other clients. There are many from the e-commerce sector. And because DICONIUM has been around for over 25 years now, they were pioneers, or one of the pioneers, in Germany, and that's one side of it. The other side has to do with my university career. For many years I was a full professor in Australia and taught game design and design innovation there, and through my university career I got to know many Chinese students who come to Australia to study. There is a large population. At the same time, through my research I was often in China. There I got to know entertainment in vehicles, fitness, all kinds of things, and for almost 20 years now I've had very close contacts, I go there very regularly and keep an eye on it, because in China, when it comes to digital, unfortunately they are not just miles ahead of us, but many, many light-years ahead, maybe even further, and the worst thing is, actually very cool, the bad thing is that we don't even really have it on our radar sometimes.
Isabell: That sounds super exciting. If you had to describe the digital or the digital retail experience in China, what would it look like?
Steffen: There isn't really such a thing as a single experience in that sense. Let me start at the beginning: what does a seller do if they want to sell something there? They go to WeChat. It's basically a messenger, like WhatsApp for us, let's say, and then you create a profile, not a website.
Isabell: Okay, so kind of like opening an eBay shop now?
Steffen: Yes, exactly, but the original reason is actually communication, that's the starting point. They do use email too, but communication, mixed between business and private, mainly happens on WeChat. So to give you a number: there are 950 million users, and they're chatting away all the time, and the shop is then generated through an app that lives inside the WeChat app. It's a bit like eBay actually being an app—you are one too—but underneath there would be countless other apps, and everyone can then do something interactive inside it. It's not just a matter of, I'll exaggerate a bit now, putting up a poster and saying I sell pants or, I don't know, robot vacuums, and that's the big difference. And the other big difference is the way payment works. Compared to PayPal, the major payment providers don't transfer the money immediately, but only once the goods have actually been delivered and are exactly as described. AliPay is the real big competitor, so Alibaba and WeChat are the main apps, so to speak. I need to explain it a bit like a website under which all kinds of other smaller mini-websites live, maybe that's a way to translate it, but it mainly happens on mobile, almost exclusively. And the two of them, Alibaba and WeChat—WeChat belongs to Tencent—are the main players, so it's basically a duopoly, to put it in e-commerce terms, and within that duopoly there are countless others underneath offering an incredible amount too, which is why you also have to say that this individual experience, as we imagine it, in China, and that maybe brings us directly to the main topic, is always embedded in a kind of holistic experience. So you have to imagine, if I go shopping, say I order a taxi with Didi. That's one provider, right, like a taxi company or Uber, as we used to say. If I've ordered a car from Didi to pick me up, I can order flowers or food right away, to wherever I'm going or driving to. But I can also play a little game right away—they automatically offer that to sweeten the waiting time—and then I even win something or get something discounted, so the e-commerce experience, the transaction, is embedded in a larger context. We call that the Swiss army knife principle. It's not just a knife; you also have lots of other things, and that's why the idea of a single retailer basically doesn't exist in Chinese thinking, but rather they always think in ecosystems. And how can they plug into the ecosystems that already exist, and how can they generate as much reach as possible, and several transactions beyond the actual transaction? That's the big difference.
Tino: That sounds like a completely different shopping experience from what we know here in Germany, for example. Is there something like a similar marketplace in China, like eBay? You already mentioned that earlier.
Steffen: No.
Tino: I almost feared you'd answer that short and sweet. So maybe you can go into a bit more detail about what it looks like there.
Steffen: I can illustrate it. So, besides the two big players just mentioned, WeChat and Alibaba, there are department stores attached to them, the biggest being Taobao, which in turn belongs to Alibaba. Of course they're all interconnected; that's ecosystem thinking too. Not only the small sellers are plugged in, but the big ones also try to connect themselves widely into all possible aspects of life. Then there's JD, actually Jing Dong, which is 20% owned by Tencent. There you get, let's say, very good goods. High-quality goods, also available in the West under JD, i.e. JD.com. And then there's Pinduoduo, which is more, as they always say, for the rural population, right, so it's bargain hunting, how do you say it, deal hunting? Those are the big shopping channels, I'd like to call them that, channels in the sense of apps in this app ecosystem. And that's why there isn't this pure auction character, “the eBay” doesn't exist. What does exist, for comparison: auctions are very attractive, among other things, in a market that's exploding there right now, and that's live streaming, live shopping. There you find that auction idea very strongly again, and of course also the direct-purchase idea, and to illustrate the live streaming: in 2020, CNN said it grew by 257%. What does that mean? People don't want to buy the product itself; people, the Chinese population, see shopping as an entertainment experience, as an entertainment offering, and that's also the fundamental difference when you look at websites in Germany. Maybe also with you? Then you'll see that these websites haven't fundamentally changed in the last 10, 15 years. They're still the same, of course: menu bar here, maybe another offer there. Through entertainment offerings, as just described, the Chinese wait for a car, for a taxi they've called, then they can play a game, but then they can also be linked to another seller right away. Or you sit down and watch something and can also take part in a quiz while doing it, right, so it's video plus interactive participation, engagement—that's the big difference, and that's the mindset too, and there's constant innovation happening there, also because in China it's simply true: new things are constantly being tried out. People don't assume that if a system works well, you just let it keep running; that's more how we tick here. Don't Touch a Running System. Don't touch the well-functioning, running thing. Over there, they say if we don't do anything new, if we don't step it up, the competition will eat us alive. And that's true. And because it's a very large market, with 1.2 billion people, I don't know, and hundreds of millions of active users and so many transactions and so much money being generated there, it's simply also possible to keep trying new things—we should really be clear about that, right? They are much braver than we are, especially when it comes to digital stuff.
Tino: You put it very nicely earlier too. Instead of a shopping experience, they have an entertainment experience, and because of that I think there's also stronger customer loyalty. So I think the time spent shopping is simply longer because I can jump from one thing to the next—that's great.
Steffen: That's also been proven.
Isabell: Interesting, so you basically share the customer, right?
Steffen: Exactly, yes, that's precisely the perspective the Chinese have. They say, because of the ecosystem mindset, this isn't just my customer; it's a customer who reaches across. And if we manage that, partnerships are also formed, and as I said, you also have to look at the really big ones, right, they naturally have so much power, market power, that they also build their own companies to sell insurance, health services, basically trying to cover the whole spectrum of life areas. But the view is that the customer should be very digital, experience as much entertainment as possible, and also cool things, not just junk. And people enjoy that, to illustrate. In China, TV isn't watched much; instead, what used to be called TV shopping here is watched as shopping as entertainment, the way we consume a TV series. There are figures, evidence, showing that people really spend a substantial amount of time watching videos too. TikTok is on everyone's lips here, and if you look at the young target group, I know the demographics of mobile use very well right now, TikTok is exploding in Germany too—these are short little videos, and of course things are sold there too. Now you could say: well, that's not happening here. I don't think so. I believe the very young target group is taking it up massively, as described: TikTok and brands that are also coming from China to Germany. From our market research I know that, conversely, Western brands are increasingly no longer even recognized in China.
Isabell: Hmm, we've talked a lot now about what we can learn from China. But maybe we can turn it around a bit too. Maybe you can share a few experiences where the Chinese might say, wow, that's really working well in Germany—maybe not necessarily in terms of entertainment, but perhaps there's something else cultural that they really value here?
Steffen: So at DICONIUM, two years ago we asked exactly that question and flew two Chinese influencers to Germany and invited them to try out all kinds of digital services in Germany. Booking a train ticket, buying cosmetic products in a shop, and many things—surprisingly, a lot of it really wasn't that good. A few things they also found really cool. That we still have good automobiles, for example, and we had prepared some interesting digital experiences too. But what they especially liked, and what stuck with me too, was the comment: “Wow, it's so nice and quiet and calm here in Germany.” Now one might think, oh, from a competitive standpoint that's maybe not so great, right, and from an innovation standpoint either. But actually they told us, you know, we're under stress all the time. We're constantly being bombarded, yes, the sword can of course be turned around too, and we absolutely enjoy that we don't have internet here for once. We were somewhere deep in the forest in Upper Franconia, and we wanted to check how far the internet still reached there. And they loved that. And I think China still has a great deal of respect for the quality that comes from Germany, for design performance, and for the systems thinking that drives us here so often. At the same time, they also see us a bit, I'll put it very bluntly, as a kind of recreation park, and that maybe isn't such a bad thing either.
Tino: You've been to Asia, to China, a few times now. Which technology impressed you the most there?
Steffen: Let me tell you an anecdote. I was in Shenzhen, which is a city where the Chinese have set up a kind of special zone to push high technology forward. Very many things we use every day today, the smartphone, many components are manufactured there. We were invited there by the local, very large bus company to travel autonomously through the city's main rush-hour traffic, self-driving. And now I have to say one thing, and I don't want to trade in clichés here, but it was really like this: in China, in road traffic, someone can suddenly come directly toward you in your lane on a bicycle, full speed, with 30 boxes piled up on the back. And that's exactly what happened, and now imagine you're riding on a fully autonomous bus—there was still a driver there ready to intervene because it was a pilot project—then someone comes at us full speed on a bicycle, and the bus simply swerved out of the way, and they tested that in traffic. And I have to say, that, and this was two years ago, really impressed me incredibly. And I work for an automotive manufacturer, so indirectly, but I also deal a lot with Volkswagen and group research. Sure, we have things like that driving around too, but in full force, that was on another level, and the fact that it reacted like that too really impressed me, and lots of other things as well. The openness of the Chinese when it comes to technology. The quality that has increased. There's an incredible amount happening in technology development, in openness to digital things, and we can learn a huge amount from that. The Chinese are really cool in that respect too; they do cool things, they try things out, and for them, maybe just to put it in one sentence, the word resilience is used so often, especially when talking about Covid: the Chinese totally have resilience down pat, it's built into them. Resilience means constantly adapting and constantly trying new things. I find that absolutely admirable.
Isabell: And if we look ahead to next year, do you have a future scenario you see, or maybe if we look ahead to 2030?
Steffen: Oh yes, let me put it this way. One big change, or one thing happening in China, is that the government is starting to intervene very strongly in these big tech brands, saying that they have to develop for population groups, for example older people who haven't been reached so far. Then you practically have to rework your whole service thing for both the general population and for people who may no longer be able to read well. And it's being said that we want wealth to be redistributed across society, in other words, a profoundly social movement. I believe that's something we'll see happening very massively in China. A lot of money will be invested in that, also by the big players, to make it possible. We see this social inclusion and diversity as an innovation opportunity. That will happen in China, and what it will do to us in 2030 is, I think, that we will also see many of the things we've just talked about in the West. We'll see much more gaming and entertainment in retail and e-commerce. And perhaps more variety in that area too. I think there will be a strong blending of physical experience and virtual experience. And that will be exciting.
Isabell: That sounds super exciting, yes, unfortunately we don't have any time left, but Steffen, many, many thanks for being here today and for taking us into the world of digital experience in China. I found it super exciting. I think we could talk for hours. Maybe also a note to our community here: if you're listening to us right now and would like to hear more on the topic, please let us know again in our community. You'll find the link for that, depending on where you're listening to us, in the description, and maybe we'll invite Steffen again.
Tino: Yes, definitely, so Steffen, I actually had to keep thinking of my Japan vacation while you were talking earlier. Tokyo and Akihabara, that electronics and gaming district, that was really a yes, an extraordinary experience, and it kind of reminded me of that.
Steffen: Yes, I'm also a Japan lover, funny enough, we hadn't talked about that before. Akihabara, there are department stores there that are simply dedicated to video games, for example, for over 10 floors, or to electronics only. It's unbelievable. You go from one floor to the next. But I have to say China tops that.
Tino: Then I definitely need to go there again too.
Steffen: Yes, you all must, we all need to. We all know far too little about China. It's a cultural nation that goes back thousands of years. For example, you couldn't name well-known Chinese writers or painters. The Chinese know that about Westerners, that's the difference. That's the big difference. We're a bit in blind flight, and that has to change, and that's what I also believe will have changed in 2030, since you asked, because if we don't do that, we won't be taken seriously by the Chinese anymore. And that must not happen, and that's why I would advocate for, and hope for, bringing openness too, to say: we are not the ones teaching the Chinese something; we should listen to what the Chinese can teach us, and in business you should always do that anyway.
Tino: A nice closing remark, but you're not off the hook yet, you still can't go. No, but the last question we ask our guests here would be: what was the last thing you bought on eBay?
Steffen: Yes, it was Halloween recently, and my children saw a photo online of a pumpkin with vampire teeth. You know those teeth, the ones you stick in, and then we said that would be cool if they glowed in the dark. Then we put that in the hallway and I ordered glow-in-the-dark vampire teeth, and then we carved pumpkins and stuck them in, and they thought it was really great and it was very nice, wonderful.
Isabell: Yes, very nice. Yes, with that, we'd like to say goodbye for this week as well, and we hope our listeners enjoyed today's podcast episode just as much as we did. And as always, please leave us your feedback in the eBay Community, and of course we'd also be happy if you subscribe to the podcast on your podcast platform of choice, and we'll hear from you again in two weeks.
Tino: Yes, Steffen, thank you very, very much for being here, it was a lot of fun, super informative, and with that we'll say goodbye to everyone.
Steffen: Yes, thank you very much, Isabell and Tino, I really enjoyed it and maybe until next time.
0 comments
