Personal Branding and Increasing Visibility
How important are personal branding and increasing visibility in the working world? How do I build my own brand and what are the most important recommendations? As part of the eBay panel series “Stronger Together” on the occasion of International Women’s Day 2022, in this podcast episode we talk with branding expert Ann-Katrin Schmitz and dabelino founder Miriam Frömel-Scheumann about concrete tips for building a personal brand.
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Isabell: Hello and welcome, dear listeners, to a new episode of our eBay podcast. We’re very happy that you’re joining us again this week. Today we’ve prepared a very special episode for you. As some of you may already have noticed, over the last two weeks we at Ebay have been focusing on a wide range of topics as part of the panel series "Stronger Together," all of which have one thing in common: smart minds and exciting women from different fields who shared their experiences with us on important topics such as gender diversity or female empowerment and discussed them with us. We’ll also link the other panels from this series again for you in the podcast show notes. And today’s podcast is also about a topic that is becoming increasingly important, especially for women in a professional context. That’s why today I’m not joined by my two valued male podcast colleagues, but by my dear colleague Janina Rosen. Janina is part of the Woman @ eBay Community. This is an internal network that aims to enable sustainable personal and business development through equal opportunities. Hello Janina!
Janina: Hello Isabell, thank you for your intro and of course a warm welcome from me to all listeners. And I have to say, I’m incredibly happy to be here today for this topic that is really very close to my heart. Today we want to talk about self branding and increasing women’s visibility. And I think that’s super, super important, but also really exciting and, above all, incredibly diverse, because as you said, of course, it can be framed in a business context, but it can also be applied to private life and, yes, it naturally becomes more and more relevant and therefore also has a very high value for our sellers on Ebay.
Isabell: Exactly. And maybe to break it down a little, personal or self branding is also about bringing my own personality, my own character and my skills to a target group. And of course self-realization also plays a big role there. But to look at the topic from different angles and not just rely on our research, we invited two experts in exactly this field. That’s why I’d first like to warmly welcome Ann-Katrin Schmitz. Katrin is an independent consultant in the areas of branding and social media marketing. She also has her own podcast at Baby Got Business, where she talks about various topics in the social media landscape, but also about topics like self branding. Hello Ann-Katrin.
Ann-Katrin: Hello, thank you very much for the invitation.
Isabell: Would you like to tell us a bit about yourself at the start for the listeners who may not know you yet?
Ann-Katrin: Yes, I started out self-employed in 2014 straight after university with a fellow student who already had a relatively large following on social networks back then. And I kind of spotted a trend, or rather a business model, and after university I made myself known together with her through social networks, with my own personal brand—where we’re already on the topic—and that worked so well after three months that both of us finished our studies and, in case of doubt, no longer had to take a job at all. Over the years, we’ve developed, and now Novalanalove—the brand I’m talking about—is the fifth most valuable influencer brand in Germany. And yes, I think personal branding worked pretty well there too. I quickly realized that brands and media are very insecure when dealing with social media and influencer marketing, and then I started out again as a consultant in 2018, I believe. And of course I also try to communicate that outwardly through a new branding, Baby got Business.
Janina: Wow, that was already a lot of input. Thank you very much, Ann-Katrin. I’m pleased that I may welcome our second guest, namely Miriam Frömel-Scheumann. She is the founder of the Bellino publishing house for fine, environmentally friendly stationery and gift items and, with these many products, also a seller on Ebay. And I have to say, I already browsed through the shop. I’m impressed. Beautiful wrapping paper and cards. Hello Miriam.
Miriam: Hello, first of all thank you very much for the lovely compliment! Of course I’m also happy to be a guest on the podcast today, and yes, thank you very much. Very nice introduction.
Janina: Yes, of course. Then tell us a bit about yourself too, about dabelino, about your journey.
Miriam: Gladly. I’m Miriam, I’m 38 years old, I come from a degree and professionally actually from journalism, so I actually did something completely different before, but in my second parental leave I became self-employed together with my mother, which is already very unusual. And then in 2017 we founded Dabelino as an ecological publisher for books and stationery. And our goal is to change our industry in a sustainable way, so to speak. Because a lot of wood is used up there—literally. And yes, we want to build a brand that will last for our grandchildren and that focuses on environmental friendliness. For this we use new production methods, such as Cradle to Cradle, which is about the circular economy. That means taking what you take from nature and giving it back. We brought the first gift wrap in Germany onto the market that carries the vegan V-Label; it didn’t exist before. And what we also do is regularly use part of our revenue to plant new trees again and again.
Isabell: That definitely sounds super exciting. We’ll certainly come back to one or two points today. Thanks to both of you for introducing yourselves first. I’d say let’s start with the questions we prepared today. And Ann-Katrin, you just said you basically became self-employed straight after university. You’re currently building a new brand again. For our listeners, let me ask it very plainly: how do I even approach that? How do I build my own personal brand?
Ann-Katrin: I’d advise approaching it with a certain strategic direction, and at the beginning of course you can, or as you already said in the intro, it’s probably never been easier to successfully do personal branding yourself. Practically from a home office and online. That wasn’t so easy many, many years ago. So the barrier to entry or the inhibition threshold has dropped. And ultimately it’s possible for anyone. How do I build something like that now? A personal brand at the end consists of exactly the same components as a classic brand. And the structure of a classic brand has the brand core, which consists of three things. First, quality, second, the target group—who am I addressing with it?—and third, the range of products. And you have to be aware of these three factors. I would even advise writing them down and maybe recording them for yourself at the very beginning in some kind of small brand book, because on the way there you tend to look right and left and maybe get a little lost. But defining a brand core for yourself, for your personal brand, is incredibly important. And if we look at the three factors a little more closely: quality is the first, then you have to define what content-wise sets you apart from everyone else. So what makes you, your brand, your business special? The second thing, the second dimension, is the target group. So who do I even want to reach? Who do I want to address? And where are they hanging out? On the internet, offline, on which social media platforms? On which websites? What are they interested in? What are they talking about? And the third is the product range and the offer. So what can I actually offer? At what scale? That can be work skills, a skill set in particular if we want to talk about the open labor market and someone wants to become more visible as a person. Or if, like Miriam, I have a very concrete business model and a shop, what are my products and what are their core competencies, so to speak.
Isabell: And that already sounds like a great start. I think everyone’s clear on the three factors. What would you say, how much time do I need to invest if I’m really starting from zero right now?
Ann-Katrin: It always depends a bit. Best, of course, as much time as possible. But many, when it comes to self-employment for example, start their self-employment while still in a permanent job. That means there isn’t necessarily a huge amount of time available if you have the privilege of being able to quit your job and invest a lot of time in your own brand from the start. Ideally as much time as needed or possible. If you’re still employed, I’d still say at least one hour a day. Because besides all this brand-core stuff and the questions you should ask yourself at the beginning, networking is super, super important and essential. I think we’ll talk more about that later. But that factor alone takes up an enormous amount of time, and it’s so important and lays the foundation for the next years of your own business that it’s really worth investing time and energy into it.
Janina: How was it for you, Miriam? You already hinted a little at how all of this came about, but how much time did you invest? And above all, how did it come about that you and of course your mom decided to become your own testimonials, or your own personal brand?
Miriam: I don’t think it was really a conscious decision to build a personal brand or a personal brand identity. But it’s actually already embedded in our founding story. It was like this: I was really holding a newborn baby in my arms during parental leave. It was Christmas, and you’re already a bit emotional anyway. Then my father came up with the question: hey, you know your way around this internet thing, right? A question many people probably know when they’re visiting their parents over the holidays. And his basic idea was that I, as a young person, could help my parents offer products they had in their shop online as well. But we quickly realized that we combined a lot of different skills: the business side—my mother had been self-employed in retail for 20 years—the creative side, so to speak. My husband is also in IT, my father is a tradesman, and it became clear to us: actually, we’re bringing all kinds of things together, we need to start something of our own. And with the children in mind, it quickly became clear to us: it has to have meaning. Yes, this truly sustainable aspect—that was set for us from the very beginning. And now my mom already had some experience selling stationery in her shop, so we said okay, let’s do it. And that’s really how it emerged organically and naturally for us, actually out of a need. And yes, we also communicate that outwardly as a person, so that we can stand for our idea, our brand, our company as people, without having to pretend or come up with some big concept—it’s simply us.
Janina: I think the keyword authenticity really comes through here again. I said that at the beginning, and you can feel it now too, in what you’re saying: it’s just enormously important to be authentic and approachable. So did it kind of develop "on the go" for you that you became your own brand?
Miriam: Absolutely. You can definitely say that there’s this very well-known advertising slogan from Hipp baby food: "and that’s what I stand for with my name." I think that was also one of the first well-known examples of a personal brand. So that existed even before the Instagram era, and it’s the same for us. We really give our brand a face, which makes us tangible for our customers. It’s not just that we want to bring beautiful children’s gift wrap or books to the market and to the people, but that we also want to convey a message, and that’s what we stand for, and we stand for it outwardly by, yes, showing ourselves, incorporating photos, revealing something about us in product descriptions so that people can connect with it. Because you mustn’t forget: there are always people behind a product and behind a company. The bigger a company becomes, the more they sometimes move into the background. In a large corporation, the founder or founders may no longer even be around. But in a small family business like ours, you can’t really separate yourself from your product and your brand, so it’s only natural to step into the public eye with it and, exactly, give people that point of connection. Ah, look, she’s kind of like us or like me, so that people can identify with it.
Isabell: Ann-Katrin, I’d also be interested in your opinion. You just described how I can create a brand core. How I can start at the beginning. How important do you think it is that I also identify with my brand? How authentic do I need to be?
Ann-Katrin: So first I have to say, that’s really lovely. I think it’s so nice how Miriam built that up. That is actually the best practice example. At some point that can also become a problem. If you’re too closely tied to your own brand, then at some point you also have to create some distance again, because of course it’s ultimately a 24/7 job. If you yourself are the brand or the brand ambassador of your own brand and company, then of course you stand for it 24/7 with your name and your face. That can be exhausting under certain circumstances, but it can also be very, very rewarding. As Miriam already said, social media wasn’t made for brands in general, but for people. And the more personally brand building takes place on social networks and is communicated outwardly, the stronger the customer loyalty at the end, because they identify with Miriam just as much and say, hey, maybe I also have a small child or I live in a similar reality to you. And the more transparently you handle that, I think, the stronger customer loyalty can ultimately be.
Isabell: We’ve talked a lot about, yes, really about building a business too. Who is building a personal brand actually important for? Is it mainly aimed at young companies?
Ann-Katrin: I’d generally say personal branding is important for everyone. Why? Because the online presence of each of us is the new digital business card. Everyone, whether you’re self-employed and want to get customers, want to become more visible with your business, or are employed and potentially looking for a new job in the future or simply want to appear attractive to employers. It’s actually important in every world and every field, every profession, to be visible, especially as a woman. We still do far too little of that in the female sphere. And there are only advantages to it. I like to give two examples and illustrate both scenarios. So either I’m some self-employed insurance broker and, for example, I regularly post on LinkedIn—which is a social business network—about current changes in the insurance world. What’s new, what do you need to know legally, and so on. If I follow you, or if I’m looking for an insurance broker, who am I more likely to go to? I think everyone can answer that for themselves. To the person where I can already see, "Hey, she’s brought competence to the outside world," she knows what she’s talking about, she’s informed, she’s curious, she’s fully up to date on the current situation and talks about it too. Or do I go to the Yellow Pages somehow? Or google some completely anonymous person I’ve never seen anything from, who I don’t have a face for, and take out insurance with them? Especially with businesses that live on trust and personality, it is incredibly important for many people to have a connection to the person as well. By now. Because now let’s come to the second example. I might be the employed graphic designer in the company, but I regularly show my work on my own website, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, no matter which channel I choose. And potential new employers see that and either proactively approach me because they find my work great and especially creative. Or I may have a much, much easier time in the application process in future because I can link to all my channels—for example, those are work samples. That will, if in doubt, give you a huge advantage over someone who just submits a plain application letter. And that’s why in basically every profession it is never a disadvantage to have some kind of digital presence that gives some insight into your personality and perhaps your interests and hobbies, but also maps out your professional environment and shows what you can do and what your skill set is.
Isabell: And I find it interesting that you just said women still struggle a bit more with this than men, or that women in particular benefit from it. When I think of social media channels on the various networks, the examples of visibility that immediately come to mind are actually always women. Why do you think women still have to catch up more there?
Ann-Katrin: I think, Isabell, that’s your algorithm bubble fooling you a bit, because you follow and see what you are, what platforms think you like to see. And in your case that’s probably female empowerment and strong women who have built cool businesses. Reality looks different. Men are still louder. Men are still more present. Men are generally more visible. They simply have less fear of putting their message out there, and so maybe this is the place for an appeal: be bold! Just try it. The worst that can happen is that nothing happens at all. But don’t be afraid of negative feedback, for example. I think many women lack a bit of self-confidence when it comes to standing up and saying, "Hey, I’m an expert in this field." I have to do it now. I’ve really made that clear for myself, and personally it was also a process. So I didn’t come straight out of university thinking, okay, I’m now Germany’s social media expert, and if anyone wants to know anything about it, they have to come to me. By now I can really say that with confidence, because I know, hey, of course I compared myself with others at the beginning. That’s naturally a bit difficult too. It’s also something women naturally tend to do, comparing themselves with other women or measuring themselves against men, maybe, which in this case is totally wrong, but of course you look a little left and right, and I think you just have to develop confidence, because you know best about your own qualifications anyway. And you know yourself exactly what you do best, and focus on that. And I think that’s how you can manage it, even among many, many male LinkedIn posts these days, maybe also with this advantage that many women have because they don’t just have emotional sensitivity or the whole issue of having children in a professional environment—women simply have so many more topics they can talk about, which in doubt haven’t yet been fully told, yes, about which they can also report very emotionally. And I think there’s still a whole lot of potential there.
Janina: I find it amusing, Isabell, that you said mainly women present themselves on social networks. That’s actually the case for me too. And I’m probably also trapped in an algorithm bubble. I see so many women on LinkedIn and Instagram right now and I also think the development is incredibly beautiful because, as you said, Ann-Katrin, there’s just so much room to grow there. Especially as a woman, you’re still a bit more humble and unsure. Of course you can’t paint everyone with the same brush, but I find it super sad that women often just don’t dare, and yet we do. We achieve so much and you really are an expert, and I think that’s something you can genuinely wear with pride outwardly. And that’s, again, to tie back into social networks and social media, such a cool opportunity to use that and present it there simply, or relatively easily. And Miriam, now that we’ve just talked about presence on social networks, I’d also be interested in your Instagram channel. Do you also notice how important that is, or is it an important channel for your personal brand too?
Miriam: I’m happy to address that question right away, but I’d first like to pick up on what Ann-Katrin just said: that it really is about daring to take the leap and step out of your comfort zone. We notice that not only in our exchange with other sellers when it comes to social media activity, but even just in having to deal with the fact that, okay, if I want to sell something online, I also have to deal with technology. How do I operate such sales software? How do I use the seller cockpit at Ebay, for example? Can I even do that? Or what is search engine optimization? Or all these technical fields that open up there. I think many women still hesitate there because, modern as we are, we often still have it in the back of our minds: oh God, technology, that’s not for women, or I don’t dare and I can’t do that. And I think you really have to overcome that barrier and just do it and see. And yes, I also think men aren’t somehow more talented or better at it from the start, but maybe simply because society expects that—men and technology go well together—just a bit bolder or braver. So just again on the topic of “Be Bold” and really dare to try something new playfully, even if you maybe fall flat on your face. Well, then you’ve taken away a learning, and next time you’ll do it better. And that’s exactly how you have to dare to present and show yourself publicly. Also on social media channels. But always with that fine line or balancing act: what do I want to reveal about myself personally? How much do I have to put out there or talk about so that I become tangible as a person? But what is too private for me? To make it concrete with me: I have no problem saying, okay, I’m a mother, I have two children, I live in the suburbs of Berlin, but you’ll never learn much more private, intimate information about my children personally. For example, there are also colleagues who take their children and do product photos with them. They have no problem with that at all. For me personally, that would be a boundary. And everyone has to look for themselves: what still feels comfortable? And what is simply too much.
Ann-Katrin: I think it’s really good, Miriam, that you brought that up again. So that’s also not easy. So I think defining that boundary is difficult, because once you’ve started, you pretty quickly get positive feedback—and I promise you that. And that naturally creates a certain motivation behind it too. And I think many people at the beginning can’t even imagine showing so much private stuff, and then at some point they catch themselves communicating very intimately. And I think you have to try to set a really professional framework for yourself, but then also stay true to yourself and not mutate into a little influencer too quickly, because I think that’s no longer necessarily good for business.
Janina: Did you find that difficult? So, the first step out into the public? I mean, Ann-Katrin, it’s been a bit longer for you. Miriam, you’re now also represented on Instagram. Was that kind of a small hurdle?
Miriam: Not personally for me, because I come from a very public profession. I used to speak professionally into microphones too. So in that sense I was already familiar with a certain form of publicity. But if we look at our team now, we also have clearly divided the roles there. So most of the interview requests and public relations work I actually do, because I simply feel more comfortable with it. And my parents are more in the background and have other tasks. And I think that’s why our family business works so well too, because everyone really has very clear areas of responsibility. So me: PR and the creative side and product design, and my parents handle all the warehousing, logistics, shipping, goods-in inspection, and everyone can play to their strengths, so they don’t get in each other’s way—which, by the way, is a question we get asked most often: oh God, you work with your mother, I couldn’t imagine that. So yes, it’s important that everyone also looks at their talents and skills and that you can divide things up like that. And that’s why I would always advocate founding in a team and in a diverse team, so that everyone has their own specialty and can contribute their own talents.
Ann-Katrin: Yes, so, Janina, for me it was a bit different—I found it totally difficult at the beginning; I couldn’t even imagine speaking on camera. And I’ve never spoken professionally into a microphone, even if that may not seem believable now.
Janina: No, you really can’t imagine that anymore.
Miriam: Especially since your voice is so pleasant too. You could have done that before as well.
Janina: Yes, right? I thought that too. Of course I also listened to the podcast a few times and I think it’s so pleasant to listen to, as if you’d done nothing else.
Ann-Katrin: That makes me really happy. But I also have to say it was a path to get there—I now also have to, because I work as a consultant and have recognized the bigger picture, the purpose and benefit of this public presence, and can use it very profitably. That’s why I do it. But I’m not someone who likes speaking into a camera. Into a microphone, by now yes, because I like that only what is said somehow counts. And it’s not the visuals or gestures and facial expressions that distract from what I’m telling you now. So now I have to deliver. Sure, you can do a lot with your voice, but content matters too, and that’s what I like most. But still, what helped me? Maybe at the beginning? Positive feedback came relatively quickly, of course you can say thank you for the compliment about the voice. But of course there was a lot of insecurity, and I don’t think I’ve told that very clearly yet. When I recorded the first podcast episode for "Baby Got Business," I showed it to my best friend Leonie, and it probably took me two weeks to make that episode. I also edited it myself, produced it myself, still at the beginning, and after two weeks of tinkering with it—really turning it into a doctoral thesis—thinking it was the best I could deliver, I showed it to her. She listens to it, I look at her with wide eyes, and she says: wow, that’s not you at all. Why are you talking so weird? And I thought, huh?! I thought I sounded totally professional—and maybe there’s the learning again. You really have to stay true to yourself; you have to do it authentically and not overthink it too much. Maybe that too. And I overthought it and cut it to absolute perfection in a way that kind of ruined it. And it wasn’t authentic anymore at all. It wasn’t me anymore at all. What I then did, to make the start easier for me, was do it together with a friend. She was a journalist and asked me questions, and through that more intimate conversation atmosphere I could somehow just be completely myself. And that was the turning point. That was when it clicked for me, and then I could work with that. And now, of course, practice makes perfect—that too, maybe to take a bit of pressure off you. Hey, if your first LinkedIn post gets no likes, it doesn’t mean it was crap, to put it bluntly, it just means not enough people saw it yet, and stick with it. So consistency is really not the most important thing in self branding, even if you get negative feedback, even if you’re not happy with yourself from time to time. Get up, try again, do better.
Isabell: I find it funny that you mention the podcast. I actually couldn’t listen to my first few podcast episodes either, because hearing my own voice felt so weird. So I can understand that you invested so much work into it, and you just said you weren’t yourself. With personal branding, to tie it back again, there is to some extent also an element of staging. How do you see that?
Ann-Katrin: So I think staging is the wrong word in this context—we’ve already talked very extensively about how important it is to be authentic. And as soon as I start staging something, if I’m being a different person or start talking differently into the camera and don’t feel comfortable and so on, then maybe that simply isn’t the right channel for me. So as soon as I notice I’m staging something or I have to stage something because I’m somehow afraid of letting people get too close to me, then I’d recommend taking a step back again. And maybe we haven’t really talked about this in detail yet: how important is it to choose the right channel for your opinion for yourself? We’ve already heard Miriam does it via Instagram, via her own website. She involves herself and, to a certain extent maybe her family, at least to some degree in the presentation of products, which is totally smart. But if I’m someone who can’t make an Instagram story and simply doesn’t feel like holding a camera in front of my face and notices it’s becoming a performance, I’m becoming a different person—other people will notice that relatively quickly. And I think, just like there are different types of people who learn differently, there are also different people who can put their message out there in different ways. For me, for example, it was the podcast, because as I said, you couldn’t see me there. It was only about what I said, and I knew what I was saying was good and right, because I am an expert in this field—I know that by now. And that’s what I’m really good at. I’m not so good at many other things, but I can do the podcast. And building on that, I then even dared to speak into the camera. But there are also many days when I’m simply not feeling it. Sometimes for weeks at a time, and then I don’t have to do it. I only ever do it when I feel, okay, now I’m centered, now I can sell this authentically and confidently to the outside world. And that’s why, yes, of course there is always a bit of staging in the sense that I edit an image or pose when I take a photo of myself and try to look as good as possible. I think that’s completely natural. But as soon as you start playing some role on the internet and developing a different digital personality, I think that becomes very dangerous. And you really have to be a bit careful and stay true to yourself. I can recommend, as I did with my friend Leonie, to go regularly to your circle of friends and acquaintances and ask, can you maybe quickly take a look before I upload this? Or what do you actually think of what I’m doing online right now? How does it come across to you? Does it contribute to my brand? What feelings does it give you, and what adjectives would come to mind to describe me online? And if those are things I can identify with, then you’re on the right track. But as soon as it becomes staging, I think it can even be harmful to your own brand.
Miriam: I’d like to chime in here too. I think what Ann-Katrin said is absolutely right, and I also think staging is the wrong word. It’s always more about curating, meaning that I show only snippets of my life, can show, want to show, because no one is online 24 hours a day on whatever channels. And you will never be able to fully portray all facets of your personality in the sense of a personal brand, which does have a close focus on the core message, on my brand message or my personal core. These are always only facets that I present outwardly. And that’s completely natural, because as a whole person each of us wears an incredible number of hats, has different roles. You’re somehow a daughter, a friend, a working professional, maybe a sister or a mother, and you’ll never be able to present all of those personality facets in your personal branding profile. Rather, it’s a partial excerpt from all these people that you ultimately embody, which you then present online. And that is exactly what fits the brand message I want to convey.
Isabell: I definitely think those are super interesting points. How would you say I can make it measurable whether my personal brand is successful? Ann-Katrin, you just said that if I can still identify with the adjectives others assign to me. Miriam, for you it may also be about how successful your business is now. How would you see it? When is your personal brand successful?
Ann-Katrin: So I would say, as already mentioned, through external feedback. But that doesn’t only have to come from friends and family. I think that’s always good for checking in with yourself. But when it comes to actually measuring success, it’s very clearly the feedback that comes from the community. And that’s kind of what you’re trying to achieve with a personal brand. In Miriam’s case, the community is clearly buyers. In my case, those are people who listen to my podcast or want to use my consulting services, and getting feedback from customers or from these community members—whatever you want or expect them to do for you—it more or less comes to you anyway, relatively unsolicited and unfiltered, through social networks. Then you can already get a sense from the tone, from how people talk about you, or whether someone maybe thanks you for content you posted or for a product you created. That gives you a feeling. And of course you can, if you ask me as a social media marketer, you of course also have to look at certain KPIs and do a bit of benchmarking. How many people comment on my posts? How high is the engagement rate? The higher it is, meaning the interaction with content—whether it’s a story or a comment under an image or a discussion in a post—the more valuable it is, really. And that’s of course also a success factor. And I wouldn’t get too hung up on likes and story views and these quantitative things. In the end, if it’s supposed to convert—if people are supposed to buy something or book a consultation—then it makes no difference whether you can derive that from 20,000 story views; in doubt, it’s more likely from 200, and those 200 are so enthusiastic about your personal brand that they say, hey, I just want to buy there from now on and interact only there. And that’s why I would definitely free myself from these hard likes and view numbers and instead look a bit more at the qualitative level and ask, hey, how can I evaluate this? What’s the atmosphere on my profile like?
Janina: Is it the same for you, Miriam?
Miriam: I’m totally on the same wavelength as Ann-Katrin, so I also always think it’s very difficult to judge from the outside. Is a person or a company really successful? You may see a large number of followers or likes or press publications from the outside, and it always looks so big and glamorous from the outside. But, as Ann-Katrin just described very well, that doesn’t necessarily mean financial success. I recently listened to another podcast episode where a young startup with a large social media account said they had sold 35,000 products in five years, which sounds like a lot at first. But I just sat there thinking, okay, if I look at our numbers, to let a little thing slip from the sewing room: we have a mini mini mini Instagram account, but those are sales figures we honestly make in a few months. So the number on the outside doesn’t always say something about profitability, and then you really have to be honest enough to say that just because I sell a lot doesn’t mean I’m in the black. Because when we look at the startup scene, most startups—especially those that took on venture capital, i.e. risk capital—are bankrupt. They’re not in the profit zone and hope to make it back at some point with an exit, an IPO. But from the outside, things can really seem very big and the reality sometimes looks different. And you shouldn’t let yourself be tempted to think or get depressed and say, "Oh man, everyone else is managing it, and I’m just pottering along here." So there is definitely also a risk, a danger, that based on the numbers you see outside, you make yourself smaller than you actually are.
Janina: Probably again especially this topic of visibility, where men sometimes charge ahead a bit more than women and you can quickly get intimidated by that. One topic we’ve only touched on so far, but that I’d also really like to know more about, is networking. So you can indirectly do that through social media with your community. How do you see that, Ann-Katrin, what impact does networking have especially in connection with personal branding?
Ann-Katrin: A huge impact, if not one of the most important aspects of personal branding in general when it comes to visibility. I started networking relatively early. Actually, out of the motivation that I’ve always been extremely curious. I’m a philanthropist, I like people. I like listening to people, I like learning their stories, I like talking to people, chatting at the dog park. But I also like chatting with you here. So really, from morning till night, I’m curious about people. Of course, you also have to kind of feel that and be that. So basically you need to bring that curiosity with you, and if you struggle with that a bit and maybe have an introverted personality, then I think, especially as you already mentioned, online media gives you the best conditions to overcome that a little and at least get out of your comfort zone digitally when it comes to networking, if you maybe don’t have a big network yet. There’s a rule of thumb that really helped me. I got it from a podcast by LinkedIn’s press spokesperson, and she’d know, as the networking platform in a business context. It’s the so-called 70/20/10 rule. And if you want to build a network, you have to give 70 percent yourself: help, contacts, create value, contribute something to the network in some form, even if you don’t have one yet, in order to build a foundation first. You’re allowed to market yourself 20 percent of the time and put your message out there, draw attention to your business, encourage people to buy, whatever. And the remaining 10 percent you can take from the network yourself. And I think the discrepancy becomes pretty clear there: 70 I put in, and only 10 I take out myself. That’s the ultimate ratio for building a strong network without demanding too much too quickly. I think that’s kind of what the rule is all about in general. And I’ve been doing pretty well with that for years now, and since day one I’ve always given more than I’ve taken. But of course that’s also partly a matter of personality. Still, I just wanted to give you a rule of thumb for how you can maybe approach this strategically. And it’s simply the foundation of every self-employment, every employment relationship. Networking also starts among colleagues and in all directions. So having networks and being able to rely on people—at the end of the day, that’s what it’s about—is also being able to rely on people when things get tough for you. And that’s what it’s all about, and the word network itself says it: it catches you. And that’s incredibly important.
Isabell: Do you have a tip for absolute beginners, so to speak, if I’m really starting from zero—do you have a tip on how I can best or smartest build a network using this rule?
Ann-Katrin: Online, LinkedIn is still the best platform for building a professional network. You can start, for example, by commenting on other people who have similar interests, similar businesses, similar views on certain topics as you. That means you’re already getting into some form of contact. Then of course you can also actively connect with such people. I would always recommend writing a personal message. Why do you want to connect with this person? What can you maybe give them? Why them and not someone else? But also offline—things are open again now—attend events. You don’t have to speak to 50 people right away, but just get out among people again and maybe try talking to one, two, or three people in the evening and say, hey, that already feels like a success to me. Maybe collect my business cards and then check them digitally. So I also think you should never underestimate networking in real life, and it’s still super, super important. Maybe simply approach people and say, hey, let’s meet for coffee if they do something similar to what you do. And what I recently learned in a self branding session with a colleague who’s also an expert in this is: network especially with younger people. We tend to orient ourselves so heavily upward, or rather learn from older people somehow. But in the very dynamic social media world we live in right now, I think it’s also essential to network with younger people who maybe give you a completely different perspective on your own job and provide new input for your target audience. And I kind of took that away with me. I’d love to pass that on here.
Janina: I think that’s super interesting because, as you said, you always orient yourself upward and think that, so to speak, you can only learn from people who are already experienced. But especially the young and agile, dynamic Gen Z—I think there’s so much to take away from that, both privately and professionally. That’s why I think it’s a great tip. Miriam, how is it with you in the seller area? You probably have a very, very large network there too. Is there active exchange? How do you handle that?
Miriam: So before the pandemic, people actually got to know each other more offline, at industry trade fairs, at competitions you took part in, meetups, workshops, and these contacts then tended to continue into social media, so the path was basically from offline to online. And these days I’d say that has changed a bit, in that because you spend more time online anyway, it’s also easier to make contacts there. And the social in social media is actually front and center for us. If you look at our contacts with other sellers, it makes it super easy to keep track of how things are developing at the respective companies or to quickly put together a joint campaign, a giveaway, or the like. It’s simply a super direct, short way to stay in touch with each other. And we also experience that there is already a great sense of solidarity, especially among female founders, among women, and that people act according to the motto “The tide will lift all boats”—the more visible one of us becomes and the others follow, the more the entire female founders’ scene can benefit. So there is definitely strong solidarity there. And social media, social channels, play a major role because you’re so easy to reach through them.
Janina: I thought that was really nice, because you often still have this image of women in your head, which is of course very stereotypical, that they don’t give each other anything and that there’s resentment. But it’s really, really beautiful that you’re lifting and supporting each other. I just think that’s something so important, especially for women and solidarity, in order to become more visible and simply achieve more. And that again ties into the topic of feedback a bit, which we’ve already discussed so often now. That in the end it strengthens everything somehow, and I think it’s super nice to hear that.
Isabell: What I’d still be interested in is, Miriam, perhaps from your own experience, and Ann-Katrin, perhaps also from client experiences, what some stumbling blocks are or where things can go wrong quickly when it comes to how do I build my own brand?
Miriam: I think the biggest stumbling block really is, as Ann-Katrin very nicely listed at the beginning, that you’re not initially clear about what my brand is. What are my values? And if you don’t have that, then you start to flounder, because then there’s no clear guideline for my actions, for decisions. Should I choose one thing or another if I don’t know what my goal is? What matters to me? So I think that’s really the biggest stumbling block at the beginning: becoming aware of what I actually want. And once that’s clear, I can align any action with it and see whether it contributes to my brand or not. And once that stumbling block is overcome, a lot has already been accomplished.
Ann-Katrin: I’d almost take it one step further to the interpersonal level, and there are three things. The first thing I often encounter, even among close friends and acquaintances, is the fear of what others will think of me? If I start posting something on the internet, if I put my message out there, if I start commenting somewhere myself, and so on. This gossip from others or fear of feedback is what stops many, many people, especially women, from becoming more visible and active themselves. And that was already point number two: fear of negative feedback. So what’s the worst that can happen? Someone says they don’t like your nose, or tries to deny your competence. Of course, the bigger the scale gets or the bigger the community you’re talking to becomes, you’ll never be able to please everyone, and not everyone will ever think you’re great. And not everyone will ever agree 100 percent with what you say. But you have to free yourself from that from the start. And to some extent you also have to be able to tolerate that if you want to become more visible as a personal brand. And the third thing is, and this may even be the biggest part: who cares what I have to say? I get that feedback very often in workshops I’ve done, for example, in large media companies. The employees thought, who cares what I do here every day at the station? But that is ultra exciting for a huge number of people. How are news stories made, how are TV segments produced? What does it look like behind the scenes? These are all things that people are really interested in and about which you can tell wonderful stories and give insights into everyone’s professional everyday life. And yes, people are interested—that interests me intensely. So please tell me about it.
Miriam: In that context, a positive culture of mistakes is of course also important, meaning that a company also goes along with it if a tweet or a post by an employee maybe goes wrong once. That you don’t immediately have to be afraid of getting a formal warning on your desk. Especially when you’re employed. And it’s the culture of mistakes that also makes us shy away from negative feedback. So I think that’s a very important point: you shouldn’t be afraid if things go wrong, and you should be aware that it’s completely normal and that everyone makes mistakes sometimes, and that founding a company is not just glamorous but always a roller coaster ride, with highs and then lows. For example, we’ve gotten into the habit of having a folder called nice customers, where we’ve saved really nice emails or reactions we’ve received from customers. And when things aren’t going so well, we pull that out and look at it and think: hey, what you’re doing isn’t so bad after all. And there are people who support you and like it, so you can remind yourself of that again. Better times will come too, and you can keep going and grow from it as well.
Janina: That’s such a lovely idea. I just smiled to myself because I think it’s also something you can take into everyday life—that as a private person, you can simply write down what went well, where you got good feedback, and then pull that out when things aren’t going so well. And I just think it’s super sweet that you put that into practice. Maybe one more question, because you just mentioned contact with customers again. What influence does, in general, the building of your or your personal brand have on online retail as such? So for example, can you also use it to recruit employees? Or do you notice that it has made you much better known? Can you say something about that?
Miriam: So of course we use our social media channels to post job ads when we have a position to fill. That said, we usually post jobs that are limited to a regional catchment area. It always depends a bit on how large the overlap is between our fans or followers who actually live in our area. Sometimes the regional press is actually the more worthwhile route for placing a job ad. But we definitely do it too, because it also sends a signal: hey, we’re growing our team and we’re growing. And everyone who shares this idea with us helps us really realize our vision of bringing our industry into the green zone. That’s also a kind of feedback to the followers. And what we also notice: we’re not only active in the B2C area, i.e. direct sales, but also on a commercial level—B2B. And there it’s definitely the case that our business partners, for example those working in book wholesale, since our products are also available throughout the DACH region in bookstores via this wholesale network, actually follow very closely what we’re doing online and sometimes already know, aha, there’s a new product coming out that I can order soon, and they’re happy about that. Or when we speak to them on the phone personally, they bring up an older post. So in this area too, visibility really matters and generates quite a few reactions. Or once we had a buyer contact us personally and say she normally never does that, never picks up the phone like that. But we had released a very special book, a memory album on the topic of star children, i.e. for parents who lost their child during pregnancy or shortly after birth. And unfortunately this buyer herself had been affected by that. And yes, because of that story, it was such a personal need for her to contact us herself and really just say thank you for daring to publish this book. You can just see from stories like that that with social media you can actually reach many different groups of people. And those are the moments when you really see the meaning in what you’re doing and when you get goosebumps and tears in your eyes and are just genuinely glad that this opportunity for exchange exists. Because as I said, it’s always about people doing business with each other. There are real people with real stories and real feelings behind every company. And yes, that’s where it comes into play—and literally if you take the social in social media, that too.
Janina: Yes, such a beautiful story. I think feedback—the word has come up very, very often now—but what I personally take away is that if you see something nice on social media, you can give positive feedback even more. Simply because, as you said, mentally there are people behind every personal brand. I think we often forget that because everything is digital and yes, that also creates a bit of distance, but that’s why, “feedback is a gift,” as they say. Yes, I think we’ve unfortunately already reached the end of the episode, and I have to say it went by incredibly fast. I’m really totally surprised. I could have kept chatting with you for hours. As I said at the beginning, I think it’s a super super exciting topic, personal branding—you really don’t know where to start or where to stop, because there’s just so much to talk about. And I’d like to thank you both as true personal branding experts for the insights and for your open and transparent opinions on the topic. We’ve now talked for quite a long time. So maybe to finish, one more question for both of you. Miriam, let’s start with you: what are the three most important points for you that we discussed today? On the topic of self branding, personal brand—what would you most like to highlight again?
Miriam: To summarize, I’d say what Ann-Katrin very clearly laid out at the beginning: think about what you personally stand for? What is your brand core? Where do you want to invest your time and energy? Then second: what is the channel on which you want to share this and to what extent do you want to share it? What is private for you and what do you want to make public? And third: with what means do you reach that goal or your customers? We follow the path of “Educate your customer.” So don’t keep your knowledge under wraps, but educate people, share your knowledge. It can only be an advantage, and we all benefit when we become a little smarter.
Janina: Ann-Katrin, what would be your three most important tips and points?
Ann-Katrin: Point number one: networking, networking, networking. Networking derives from the word net. So the finer-meshed you weave it, the more likely it is to hold you. It catches you in situations where you may need help. But in general it also gives your brand and business—or whatever you do—stability. Point number two: find role models. Look at how others communicate, how they’ve built their personal brand, how they approached it, what content they put online and how they prepare content, whether as a video podcast, a written post, etc. And find role models—people who may already be a bit further ahead, whom you can orient yourself by and identify with. And the third is: stay curious. About people, about topics, about the world. Be open and approach people whenever, whenever you feel it and whenever you can with your personal energy. People usually welcome you with open arms. And it’s incredibly important never to stand still, but always to face the world with curiosity and openness, including in personal branding.
Isabell: Those were definitely some very nice closing words. Thank you both for that. One quick question to wrap up, which we normally also ask our podcast guests on the podcast: what was the last thing you bought on Ebay? Miriam, maybe you’d like to start?
Miriam: Yes, I actually bought an accessory part for our kitchen sink; we’re getting a new fitted kitchen right now and I found what I needed on Ebay.
Isabell: And Ann-Katrin, what was it for you?
Ann-Katrin: I generally buy mostly second-hand designer clothes there, and I can’t remember exactly what it was, but I think it was last winter—Max Mara faux fur gloves. You can always score good bargains.
Isabell: That just shows once again how diverse the platform and the inventory there is. Yes, thank you both so much for taking the time to join us today. As Janina already said, I think we could have talked about the topic for hours more. It was a lot of fun. I was able to take away a lot for myself too. So thank you again, and I hope our listeners feel the same. You’re very welcome to subscribe to us on your podcast platform of choice and rate us there too, so you don’t miss any more episodes from us.
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