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Using a double standard? eBay removes historical porcelain figurine – other listings remain online
Summary: lidor3073 describes how eBay removed her listing of a historic Neundorf porcelain figure. eBay justifies this with its policy on offensive items, even though the disputed word wasn’t used at all. lidor3073 criticizes the inconsistent application of the rules, since similar products are still available on the platform. The discussion broadens into general topics such as racism in historical depictions and the enforcement of eBay’s guidelines. Some participants question eBay’s methods, while others point out that eBay’s AI and user reports lead to such decisions. Overall, eBay’s inconsistent enforcement of the rules is criticized. lidor3073 comments on inappropriate tones in the forum.
I'm very sorry, @voli-maus but I have to create a new post after all, as the circumstances have changed.
I’d like to ask a question about the consistent application of the eBay principles.
My listing for a historical Neundorf porcelain figurine, about 29 cm tall, was removed because of the principle regarding offensive and insulting items.
The title of my listing was:
„Neundorf porcelain figurine boy with cake tray turban Sarotti style large 29cm“
The description was factual and included information about the manufacturer, motif, size, and condition. My listing did not contain racist statements, demeaning remarks, or glorification of hate or discrimination.
I filed an appeal. However, the review was rejected again. eBay then informed me:
„Items that depict the ‘Sarotti Mohr’ or contain the word ‘Mohr’ in the listing [...] [are] discriminatory.“
The interesting thing is: I didn’t use the word „Mohr“ in my listing at all.
eBay apparently classified the figurine as a historical „Sarotti Mohr“ based on its depiction.
At the same time, eBay told me that the original decision was made using automation or artificial intelligence after a report by a user (which makes it odd that these users are so inconsistent and don’t report other listings).
So I took a look at what is currently being offered on eBay. Among other things, I still find:
historical porcelain figurines with dark-skinned people,
listings that even use the term „Mohr“,
„Blackamoor“ figurines,
highly sexualized anime figures,
figures with very extensive nudity or visible naked breasts.
I can provide item numbers on request.
My point here is explicitly not to single out any individual other sellers.
I am not demanding that other listings be removed. I am asking whether eBay actually enforces its rules according to consistent criteria (or depends on user reports).
Because if the automated review is, for example, able to detect certain prohibited symbols like swastikas, then I have to ask why other content that could also be problematic under the eBay principles is still easily found.
I do find it understandable that eBay wants to protect its platform from racist, discriminatory, or degrading content.
But then this rule should also be applied in a way that is understandable, objective, and consistent.
In my case, a historical porcelain object was removed even though my description contained no racist term and I had not used the word „Mohr“ that eBay itself explicitly mentioned at all.
So my question to eBay is:
According to what specific criteria is a distinction made between a permitted historical depiction and a „discriminatory depiction“ — and why does it apparently take a user report before a listing is reviewed accordingly?
*sweet-melody*
·3 weeks agoA friendly "hello" to the group!
Racism is the same to me as disrespect.
These are traits that you learn over the course of your life.
You are not born with them.
We only have to look at how small children in
kindergarten interact with each other. They don’t have such
thoughts, no matter whether black, red, yellow, they get
along with each other. They show us how it’s done. We can also learn
from them.
This natural way of dealing with one another is destroyed by us,
when we negatively influence them, feed them false values and
treat them disrespectfully. They pick it up from us.
Never forget, we have a role model function.
Those are my thoughts on the topic, I felt like sharing them.
If eBay doesn't want these items on its platform,
take them down and don’t get upset @lidor3073 !
Wishing everyone a sunny day! ❤️
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@*sweet-melody*
Thanks. I'm no longer annoyed about the figure itself, but about the WAY people are treated. And about an inappropriate tone, which unfortunately - especially by the mentor team - is used here. I don't think that's good, and you can talk about anything and discuss anything - but not feel like you've immediately been clobbered over the head with a frying pan.
That's my opinion on it, and best regards.
petersmodellbahnstuebchen
·3 weeks ago@lidor3073
You should give specific examples before making broad generalizations about the mentor team’s statements.
That also makes me feel addressed, since I’m part of the mentor team.
My response to that: from now on, I’ll just ignore your questions, answers, suggestions, etc., no matter what problems are bothering you right now.
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago · Edited@petersmodellbahnstuebchen
But that’s not very nice, punishing me for it - and either it went right past you 🤔 yesterday I wrote that you weren’t meant, and secondly I also gave the specific example - which incidentally is here in the thread - sometimes you do have to look, after all we expect complete cooperation from the people asking. And I think if you look, you’ll find it too, because you’re definitely not stupid. Just a little too “set in your ways,” in my opinion. Thanks!
petersmodellbahnstuebchen
·3 weeks ago · Edited@lidor3073
It may be true that it isn't nice. But when you write
"And about an inappropriate tone, which is unfortunately used here - especially by the mentor team -"
I do feel addressed by that and make sure that doesn't happen again in the future.
By the way, that was my closing remark in this and the next posts.
voli-maus
·3 weeks agoMentors are not employees of ebay, they do this voluntarily, really.
The "tone" may sometimes seem rough.
Better to be "advised" here for free than have ebay suspend your account.
I myself have learned a lot; the community has been and continues to be a great help to me.
Several of my items have already been removed by ebay, not just the one brand I already wrote about.
Well, that was how it went then.
I wish you all the best.
stubenkram
·3 weeks ago · Edited@lidor3073 I suspect that your listing was reported by another seller who also had a similar item deleted. Regarding your figurine, it may also be worth mentioning that the depiction is not of a chubby, cute toddler, but of an older, slim child or a young adult. So your porcelain figurine is not a completely "typical Sarotti Moor"; the clothing is also in completely different colors. That is why the AI may not be able to recognize such a listing. Ebay relies on members' "help" when finding and removing comparable listings.
As I already wrote, it is solely because of this one-off fundamental violation through listing this porcelain figurine that Lidor3070 will in future have to wait longer for the money from her sales. Lidor3070 sent me the text of the letter she received from Ebay customer service.
The complaint/the objection that Lidor3070 filed against her "demotion to new seller" and the associated, future longer withholding of her payments was rejected by Ebay. The reasoning is long-winded and revealing. However, since it is probably not permitted in the community to publish such letters from Ebay, I will refrain from doing so and limit myself to this:
The letter shows that the policy on "National Socialist and other extremist as well as offensive and insulting items" also refers, among other things, to dolls and to historical advertising. Prohibited are "degrading, negative, or stereotypical depictions based on race or ethnicity, with exaggerated features or caricatures". The Sarotti Moor is regarded as a "discriminatory, colonial-racist symbol".
Since yesterday, a few of the Sarotti dolls have apparently been deleted on Ebay. But there are still some available. Under the search term "dark-skinned doll," for example, you can find Schildkröt replicas, which also wear such clothing. I had already mentioned Wumbi and Mambi in their grass skirts. You will find "stereotypical or exaggerated features and caricatures" very often in dolls and figures of any kind. The doll industry has always lived off that. There would be a lot to delete on Ebay.
When it comes to historical advertising, the first thing that comes to mind are the collectible pictures and albums that were once offered by various companies. The depictions on these pictures are often racist or otherwise discriminatory. There are likely to be a great many offers on Ebay in this respect as well. The old colonial goods stores I mentioned earlier would also be worthy of deletion.
Another area would be figures, dolls, and other depictions of "Indians" and what was formerly, in politically incorrect terms, called "Eskimo". The Asian "kimono dolls" made especially for tourists, but also other costume or folklore dolls, could partially fall under this as well. Stereotypical depictions, excessively cute, sexually suggestive, or caricatures can be found in dolls and figures of all kinds and eras - completely regardless of the age depicted and the "skin color". What is or is not discriminatory probably lies in the eye of the beholder.
And then there are older games (such as the card game "Old Maid") and masses of books with texts and illustrations that are no longer considered politically correct. Since the AI cannot look inside the book, it will not be able to tell at a glance whether, for example, the children's books by Erich Kästner, Astrid Lindgren, Ottfried Preussler, or Michael Ende are an already revised, newer edition or not.
roter_rauch
·3 weeks ago... now calm down a bit again @stubenkram and @lidor3073
Maybe/hopefully Ebay will provide an explanation for withholding payments. There are already quite a few more or less supposedly plausible reasons going around. "Naughty" is not one of them & is absurd, since something or other is constantly being deleted somewhere; that’s happened to me too. Without any further "sanctions".
Leaving that aside, nobody is accusing you, lidor3073, of racism. But one can accept that such depictions/figures/images have at least promoted and encouraged everyday racism, which continues to this day and which no one with a sound mind would want to support anymore. This is about things, not something personal.
stubenkram
·3 weeks ago · EditedHello @roter_rauch
I wrote "naughty" because I initially thought that @lidor3073 had made a second attempt to list this figure. But that wasn't the case.
From what lidor3073 wrote to me today, she was told as the reason for the withheld payments that she had listed a racist item.
That is possible, provided one knows why and that the Sarotti Moor is banned on Ebay. Lidor3073 didn't know, and until today neither did I. On top of that, I see Sarotti dolls on Ebay far too often that are dressed exactly like the well-known porcelain advertising figures. The only difference between doll and figure is that the doll doesn't carry a tray.
For me, as I already wrote, a black celluloid doll in a grass skirt from the 1950s is in terms of "stereotype/stigmatization" by no means any less bad than the same doll in oriental attire.
As modern, old, or antique toys, black dolls, even exaggerated ones, are allowed on Ebay. Grasping the differences between which dolls are considered racist and which are not is not entirely easy.
stubenkram
·3 weeks ago · EditedI’m only seeing this post now.
No reason is too flimsy for eBay to withhold money first. You were naughty, @lidor3073 You’ve posted something again that is forbidden here. Oh well....
Edit:
Or did you not even try posting it a second time without “im Stil von Sarotti” in the text?
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@stubenkram
I haven't set anything more in that direction. You can browse through my list. There's only "white stuff" in there. 😏
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@stubenkram
I was "naughty" for having criticized. And THAT is the point!
stubenkram
·3 weeks agoOh dear, @lidor3073
What else is there to write about that? You know my opinion on it. I find sexist depictions in advertising or as toys just as discriminatory and despicable as racist ones. And I find collectible items from the Nazi era much worse than a porcelain figurine that depicts a "Mohr" with a turban.
If Ebay has decided that, among other things, Golliwogs and Sarotti-Moors are racist and discriminatory and that nothing should be sold here that resembles such figures or shows such motifs, then that's just how it is. The figurine you had offered was, incidentally, in my opinion not an antique original, but a replica, like most of the other Sarotti-Moors on the market. These figures have cult status, but probably only since the 1960s, when they became especially well known through TV advertising.
Although you didn't use the word "Mohr", your figure in its modeling corresponds to the other Sarotti-Moors and was recognized as such. But that does not mean that you're being accused of racism. You simply offered an item that is not allowed on Ebay.
The problem with the Sarotti-Mohr is likely that he usually carries a tray and is therefore clearly a servant (a slave). But apparently there are no objections to an antique grocery shop, described as a colonial goods store, that has motifs of black slaves on the shop sign. (Or maybe no one has ever thought to report such an item.)
I think it's good and right that even a collector of antiques gives thought to their choice of words and also considers when and for what reasons, for example, black dolls were made. But the linguistic contortions some Ebay sellers go through in order to describe such a doll correctly are sometimes almost comical.
Antique dolls that depict non-European children are referred to by collectors as "Orientals & Exotics". There is certainly exaggeration and stigmatization here too. Such dolls are allowed on Ebay. Black celluloid dolls from the 1930s to the 1960s sometimes bear company-specific names that collectors use. But I guess names like "Wumbi" and "Mambi" from Schildkröt don't cause offense on Ebay? I'm not really informed about that.
I find a black celluloid doll from the 1950s that is wearing nothing but a little straw skirt just as "out of line" in terms of stigmatization as a moor in a turban that evokes the colonial era. But lovers of black dolls and figurines don't collect such objects in order to slander their Black fellow human beings or because they have racist tendencies, but because they find these dolls beautiful and appealing. I don't find anything reprehensible about that.
But: toys are not harmless, they never were, and they reflect very precisely the time in which they were created. Toys from the 1930s are now almost antique. I have quite a few of them in my collection, but certain things from the Nazi era would definitely never come into my house.
By the way, I also don't own any Barbie dolls. I didn't like them even as a child. I think they're absolutely awful. They should be banned on Ebay. 😂
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@stubenkram
Right, it was a replica of the Neundorf trading operation. And as for your other opinions: I’m very committed to fighting racism and condemn it deeply. Especially since I’ve had to listen to racist remarks myself before. 😏
lidor3073
OP3 weeks agoApparently I am listed as a "new seller".
And if you look in Seller Cockpit Pro, among other things you find this figure! What absurdity!!!!
sunrise1605
·3 weeks agoYeah, hang on a sec!
In that case, it's diversity.
That's something totally different 😎
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@stubenkram take a look.
lidor3073
OP3 weeks agoDear folks,
The funniest thing about it is: since I supposedly offered “racist” items for sale, eBay is unlawfully withholding my sales proceeds for my OTHER sales until the end of September! Hahahaha!
@miriam@ebay or @voli-maus please bring in a staff member on duty. THIS is a sanction I cannot and will not accept!
roter_rauch
·3 weeks ago"For me, it’s about the principle of principles -"
Ebay probably already bans the image as such. The fact that similar figures are still being offered, sometimes even with "indexed" terms, is one of the many errors in the system, but that doesn’t derive any right to anything. On the contrary: if photographed well, Ebay’s review AI is likely to recognize the usual stereotypes even faster and delete the listing immediately. In the end, though, it’s just the typical colonial/racist patterns with baggy trousers, turban ecc. around/from 1900. Cute & "exotic" on chocolate boxes, but cruel on the ground.
petersmodellbahnstuebchen
·3 weeks ago · EditedHey @lidor3073
come to terms with the fact that certain images banned by Ebay on this platform are removed from this platform. Usually after reports from other members, since adapting the algorithms to account for every eventuality would require unnecessary programming effort that brings 0 profit.
Besides the old depiction of the Stollwerck company that you criticized, about 15 years ago I had a model car with advertising for Roberson Marmalade that was removed. Back then, German customer service first had to research in the USA to find out the reason. After more than a week it was clear that the Golliwog was shown.
Even the Stollwerck company has recognized the signs of the times and replaced the M... with the magician.
lidor3073
OP3 weeks agoAbsurd. Honestly. I can't say anything more about it............
petersmodellbahnstuebchen
·3 weeks agoYou don't need that either.
turbotuentchen
·3 weeks agoGood grief, please just accept that eBay does not want heavily pigmented boys with turbans serving the chocolates on the platform. End of story. DONE!
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@turbotuentchen
You can also write a bit more kindly. For me, it's about the principle of the basics - whether it's sexism, racism, or now supposedly insulting strongly pigmented FIGURES! We're talking about historical figures and a definitely NOT racist context.
Please be so kind and make an effort to use an appropriate tone. Thank you very much.
voli-maus
·3 weeks agoOnce, a real perfume miniature was removed from me, seriously.
That’s a very well-known brand.
Have you contacted customer service, @lidor3073 ?
You can find the contact details in the legal notice.
Well, one person gets caught, someone else doesn’t.
And I already wrote that some terms should be left out.
And if the article has nothing to do with Sarotti, then it belongs in neither the headline nor the AB.
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@voli-maus
I didn’t contact customer service, because eBay’s response was so extreme that I won’t list the figure anymore - I’ll do that somewhere else.
Removing a well-known perfume brand is also really harsh. 😕😏🙄
sunrise1605
·3 weeks agoThis whole Mohr thing and the one with the Golliwog is just ridiculous.
So are there no more heavily pigmented dolls now either?
lidor3073
OP3 weeks ago@sunrise1605
Yeah, tons of them are being offered on eBay. Same with the crudely pixelated mangas!
Looks like someone’s got a grudge against me 🤷