eBay should stay completely out of the legal transaction between seller and buyer
Hello @steffi@ebay
many thanks for your detailed reply.
I’d be happy to give you two examples where eBay interferes (massively, in my opinion), fitting your sentence:
... since I cannot see where eBay prevents sellers from doing it properly for buyers in further steps.
First, from the seller’s perspective:
If, as a seller, I am confronted with an automatic return, eBay is denying me my (seller) right to repair or cure the defect / subsequent performance (§440BGB).
- We’ve already discussed at length here in the forum why, as a seller, I am no longer granted any options to influence automatic returns by eBay (e.g. replacement delivery).
Your statement that the buyer protection process does not provide for a replacement delivery unfortunately does not make it legally more correct - it only proves that eBay is circumventing this law with its own rules or deliberately undermining it.
And now from the buyer’s perspective:
As a buyer, I have the right to delivery (§433BGB) or subsequent performance (§439BGB) if the delivery is defective.
What matters here is the first-mentioned right to delivery.
This obliges the seller - quote:
... to hand over the item to the buyer and transfer ownership of the item. The seller must provide the buyer with the item free of material defects and defects of title.
And this is exactly where eBay intervenes by allowing the seller to "simply" refund the money without having to deliver.
The fact that, in this specific case, the seller took advantage of this circumstance to their own benefit (higher new selling price) makes the weakness of the system clear to me!
And yes, I think you misunderstood me a little.
In my opinion, eBay should stay completely out of the legal transaction between seller and buyer, as it did back in the 2000s!
But that is precisely what eBay no longer does today - and if that is the case, then intervention should be "consistent" and it should not be excused by saying that eBay is only the intermediary!
It is true that eBay does not invalidate the purchase contract - but it changes it in such a way that the contracting parties have mutual advantages and disadvantages!
By the way, what exactly do you understand by eBay’s great delivery-time algorithm?
If you were to ask commercial sellers, a vast majority would probably tell you that this represents a massive вмешательство in the delivery process (which is part of the purchase contract).
p-schauberger
·7 months agoHello @imperial-modellbau,
nicely explained. But eBay doesn’t want to understand that at all.
The goal is to pamper private members.
"If you were to ask the commercial sellers, a vast majority of them would probably tell you that this constitutes a massive вмешательство in the delivery process (which is part of the purchase contract)."
Not only that, the ridiculous returns also violate applicable law!
Just send it back WITHOUT a withdrawal declaration or a single piece of paper.
I demand purchase contracts (without a withdrawal declaration) later, if necessary with a lawyer.
It’s time that a few things change at eBay ...
VG Peter
imperial-modellbau
OP7 months agoHello again @steffi@ebay
Addendum
The following thought:
- You are the customer, bought a model from me, and after delivery find that a part is missing.
- You open a case - I have to take the model back and refund you the purchase price.
- Case closed!
- Apart from the fact that you will think twice about buying something from me again, because you’ve already had a bad experience - how do you think your rating will look?
- Surely not positive, right?
And now please think about this!
- If I, as the seller, had the option of sending the missing part afterward, you would have the model you wanted, complete!
- And most likely even a small bonus as an apology (that’s at least how I do it)
- You would have experienced that I make an effort for the customer’s well-being and maybe we would have also had a pleasant communication.
- You would have felt taken seriously as a customer and your problem would have been resolved without any hassle - how do you think your rating would turn out in this case???
Well?
steffi@ebay
Good morning Andy @imperial-modellbau, thanks very much for your addendum with the practical example from the customer’s perspective. 🙏
You once again show how important it is to also keep the buyers’ perspective in mind – especially when it comes to long-term customer satisfaction.
📦 Mistakes as an opportunity for customer loyalty
You’re absolutely right: a mistake does not have to end negatively; it can be a real opportunity if you show that you act fairly, service-oriented, and solution-focused.
Your example makes it clear how, through transparent communication and an uncomplicated replacement shipment, even a negative experience can turn into a positive purchase experience. 💬🤝
The fact that you consciously live this approach – even with small extras as a sign of goodwill – shows how much genuine customer service means to you. 👏
⚙️ System logic vs. practical reality
At the same time, you also made very clear where the frustration comes from: when system processes leave sellers no opportunity to make things right – for example when a small part is missing – even though both sides would actually prefer a pragmatic solution.
Especially when one is trying to be accommodating, it is understandable that a rigid refund process is more demotivating than trust-building.
I understand the fact that this seems to be possible more flexibly on other platforms as a signal.💡
💬 Why we structure these processes this way
What I would like to add here:
Customer satisfaction is also eBay’s top priority – and that of course means all members: buyers as well as sellers.
That is precisely why our return and buyer protection processes are designed to offer the simplest, fastest, and most reliable solution possible for both sides.
We are aware that in individual cases this does not always fit the situation perfectly – but the goal is very clear: reduce complexity and resolve conflicts with as little friction as possible. ⚖️✅
📣 What I can do – and what I can’t
I understand your point of view, and as promised: I will pass this feedback on internally too, including your practical example and the structural criticism of the case-opening process.
What I’m also clear about is that it’s not just about your own shop, but about an issue that affects many sellers in different ways.
From my side, however, that’s all there is to say.
I can pass these perspectives on (and I do), but changes to the system or the processes themselves are outside my decision-making authority.
Thanks, Andy – as always – for your commitment, your attitude, and your willingness to speak openly about things. In doing so, you’re not only moving your own concerns forward, but also helping us continue thinking internally about exactly these kinds of points. 🙏
itec-systems
·7 months ago"An automated refund does not replace the statutory right to delivery or subsequent performance.
eBay Buyer Protection is an additional, alternative solution that users can make use of without having to rely on civil legal action."
But that would then mean everything else would have to be done outside of Ebay. Since the automatic refund has taken place, but the buyer still wants the product, they just have to buy it outside of Ebay, right? 🙂
steffi@ebay
Hello @itec-systems, thank you for your question – and an important clarification here:
No, that definitely does not mean that the purchase would have to take place outside of eBay. ❌🛒
If the item is still available after the refund, the seller can simply list it again on eBay as normal – just like with any other transaction. 📦🧾
If the buyer is still interested, they can then place the order again through eBay as usual – including buyer protection, tracking, and communication through the system. 🔄💬✅
The statement that buyer protection is an “alternative solution” does not refer to an external process, but rather to the fact that this protection mechanism is an additional option – in case something goes wrong. It does not replace legal claims and it does not move anything “outside.”
🔁 In short:
If the buyer still wants the product despite the refund, that can of course be handled within eBay.
imperial-modellbau
OP7 months agoHello @steffi@ebay
And that is miles away from reality.
If the buyer opens a case and still wants the item, then this is exactly the case where the seller should be able to provide a repair or a replacement.
According to the German Civil Code, the seller has this right; I can't say to what extent this is excluded by eBay's terms and conditions, but I suspect that it is.
You, or rather your legal department, unfortunately did not address my example from the seller's perspective.
But the fact is, as you yourself wrote, that a replacement delivery is "not предусмотрено" and that is exactly an untenable situation for us sellers !
Example:
I deliver a model and one part is missing from the package.
Wouldn't the easiest thing be to send the buyer this part and everyone would be happy !
That also works well when the buyer sends me a message.
But if the buyer opens a case, I as the seller am denied this option - at least in terms of the case process.
According to your statement, I would therefore have to take back the defective item, refund the purchase price, and then the customer could buy it again.
Leaving aside the fact that this probably wouldn't happen in reality anyway, it's completely unnecessary effort and, above all, avoidable costs !
steffi@ebay
Hello Andy @imperial-modellbau, thanks again for your detailed feedback and the clear example – cases like this in particular help enormously to make weak points in the process visible. 🙏
As promised: I will of course pass this feedback on internally as well, including the example of the missing replacement option in an opened case.
🔍 Let me also share a personal thought:
All of this only happens once the defect has already reached the customer.
And that already raises the question for me whether it wouldn't make sense to catch exactly these avoidable cases beforehand – e.g. by doing a brief final inspection before shipping. 📦🔍
Of course mistakes happen – we're all only human. But if a part is missing from the model, then that can usually be spotted before shipping.
And if that happens, you not only avoid the eBay resolution process, but also costs, time, duplicate communication – and maybe even a review that would otherwise cause headaches.
As always, thanks for your openness and for not only bringing these things up, but also putting them up for discussion. That's very valuable! 🙌
imperial-modellbau
OP7 months agoHello Steffi @steffi@ebay ,
thanks for passing that on - although I have to admit that I think it won't help much - see also the other post about this!
Regarding your personal thoughts, I'd also like to say a few words:
Of course you're right that things like this should ideally be prevented in advance - but as you yourself noted, we're all only human and mistakes do happen.
Ebay isn't my only sales platform, as you can imagine - but with all the others I have the option of sending a replacement, because ...
Because every error or defect, as you call it, is also an opportunity at the same time.
!
An opportunity to prove to the customer that one is accommodating, helpful and generous - and above all that one is committed to customer satisfaction.
- - That's actually something that especially the decision-makers at Ebay should understand or don't you think? - -
But Ebay takes that opportunity away from me by stubbornly sticking to run-of-the-mill procedures, without the slightest flexibility!
By the way, my example happens extremely rarely with us, because of course we have a final inspection!
And sometimes, which shouldn't be left unsaid either, customers break off a part and then claim it wasn't included - but thankfully that also happens extremely rarely!
I wasn't actually talking specifically about my situation - every other seller has similar problems, just in their own area, with their very own situations and sensitivities!
imperial-modellbau
OP8 months agoHello @steffi@ebay
Thanks to you - I'll be patient then! 🙂
Wishing you a lovely Friday and a nice weekend too!
steffi@ebay
Thank you very much, Andy @imperial-modellbau 🌻
steffi@ebay
Hello Andy @imperial-modellbau, I just wanted to give you a quick update:
I followed up with our legal department again for feedback on the topic, especially with regard to the points mentioned around subsequent performance, refund, and possible interventions in the contractual relationship.
I was told that an assessment is already being worked on. As soon as I get something concrete back on this, I will כמובן get back to you here again, or to both of you. 📩⚖️
Thanks again for your patience – that's not something to take for granted! 🙏
imperial-modellbau
OP8 months agoHello @steffi@ebay
no problem - by now I've learned that the Ebay mills grind pretty slowly.
If at least some very fine flour came out of it, in the sense of a concrete and reliable statement, that would be great! 😊
steffi@ebay
Hello Andy @imperial-modellbau, as promised, I’m getting back to you here with feedback from our legal department on your detailed questions about refunds, cure, terms and conditions, and buyer protection. ⚖️ Thanks again for raising the topic so thoroughly and objectively.
🧾 Key point from a legal perspective
From a legal standpoint, the situation can essentially be summarized in two points:
1. Buyers and sellers voluntarily agreed to the eBay policies (including buyer protection, automated refunds, etc.) by accepting the terms and conditions.
2. The statutory claims - especially under §§ 433, 439 BGB - remain unaffected. The eBay processes therefore do not take away any rights from buyers, but instead provide an additional layer of protection.
This means:
• An automated refund does not replace the statutory right to delivery or cure.
• Buyer protection is a supplementary, alternative solution that users can rely on without having to depend on civil law proceedings.
🧭 Legally, everything is in the green - but...
What I find particularly important is the following point:
The problem often lies in the feeling of restriction that arises for some sellers - especially when processes run automatically or communication is lacking.
It may therefore be worth taking a closer look at how our policies are designed and how they affect practice.
💡 Why eBay has designed buyer protection this way
The purpose of eBay buyer protection is not to enforce statutory claims - but to offer a low-threshold, additional way of resolving issues that gives buyers security and confidence - **and ultimately also benefits sellers.**
Because:
📦 Buyers are more likely to place an order when they know there is an uncomplicated solution in the event of a problem.
🛠️ Sellers do not have to wrestle with complex individual-case rules, but benefit from clear, scalable processes.
✅ Conclusion
Buyer protection exists alongside legal rights and is an additional tool for resolving conflicts on the marketplace. That this mechanism does not always work smoothly in practice - or is not perceived as fair by everyone - is completely understandable. That is exactly why it is so important to talk about it openly.
Because we take the design and perception of our policies very seriously.
I hope this helps clarify things for you 💬🙏
imperial-modellbau
OP8 months ago@steffi@ebay
Hello Steffi,
first of all, thank you very much, also to your legal department, for the detailed response!
I’ve let this sit for a few days and also discussed it again with my friend, the lawyer.
He was the one who had already pointed out to me beforehand that terms and conditions can definitely “soften” existing laws and regulations - hmm, let’s call it that - without making the terms and conditions invalid as a result.
Especially then, as you also mention above, when both sides have agreed to the terms and conditions.
In that respect, I had quite expected this kind of response, because I did NOT assume that your legal department doesn’t know its job! 😉
Purely from a legal point of view, eBay is therefore on the safe side - however...!
However, my main aim was to show how eBay’s policies affect practice - and you did recognize that! 🤗
What stands out to me about the statement is that it refers exclusively to the buyer side - which is not surprising, of course - since we all know eBay’s, in my opinion, excessive fixation on buyers.
Unfortunately, not a word is said about my first example from the seller’s perspective!
That I as a seller have no way to intervene “regulatorily” in automatic returns was and is a shortcoming that urgently needs to be fixed!
Please also see my thread on this:
Get returns processing on the review board at last... - eBay Deutschland Community
Where I also invited you, among others, to join the discussion!
I would be glad if the legal department would also comment on this issue from their or eBay’s perspective!
steffi@ebay
Hello Andy @imperial-modellbau, thank you for your detailed feedback – and also for taking the time again to go through everything calmly and discuss it from an outside perspective. 🙏
You had tagged me again in the thread, but to be honest: I no longer felt directly addressed there, because from my point of view the point you raised first – the question of whether eBay “denies” something to sellers – had already been answered, and I’d also like to stay here in this thread for better clarity 🙂.
Here are the key statements again for context:
1. Buyers *innen and sellers *innen voluntarily agreed to the eBay policies (including buyer protection, automated refunds, etc.) by accepting the terms and conditions.
2. The legal claims – especially under §§ 433, 439 BGB – remain unaffected. eBay’s processes therefore do not take away any rights from buyers *innen, but instead provide an additional layer of protection from which sellers *innen also benefit.
This means:
An automated refund does not replace the legal right to delivery or subsequent performance.
The eBay buyer protection is an additional, alternative solution that users *innen can rely on without having to go through civil law proceedings.
⚖️ No removal of legal rights – but an additional option
The automated processes are intentionally designed so that they also enable sellers *innen to find a straightforward solution without undermining legal obligations. This applies to both the buyer *innen and seller *innen side.
As already said: buyer protection is not there to enforce legal claims - it is intended to create additional trust, for example through quick refunds in certain conflicts. The whole thing is based on voluntary participation (by accepting the terms and conditions) and is not a substitute for civil law claims, which of course still exist.
🔁 Return processes – feel free to continue the discussion in the new thread
Since this topic goes beyond the original legal question here and extends into the operational return processes, I suggest that you continue discussing it in the thread you already opened about return processing.
That is the right place to bring in experiences, criticism, and also constructive ideas for possible further development. 💬
We will pass the feedback expressed there on to the responsible teams in a consolidated form - not only with the aim of initiating concrete changes, but also to reflect the perspectives and experiences from the community internally in a transparent and comprehensible way.
It is important to us that such feedback is seen as part of an open feedback culture in which your assessments and everyday experiences can be taken seriously and placed in context. Even if this does not automatically lead to a direct call to action, voices like these are often valuable impulses for internal discussions - and sometimes also for changes. 💪
steffi@ebay
Hello Andy @imperial-modellbau and happy Friday 🌟, I have forwarded your feedback and question regarding the legal basis for substitute performance (§440 BGB), delivery (§433/439 BGB), and the intervention of eBay processes in the civil-law contractual relationship internally to our legal department for review. 📩⚖️
As soon as I receive a response, I will get back to you here. Please be patient a little longer 💬🙏
imperial-modellbau
OP8 months agoHello @steffi@ebay
thanks for moving it.